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Nice referance material you have created, very informative .
 
Curious about these new underfolders showing up. This isn't first type. But does not appear to be second type either. The second type you show looks like the selector clearance is simply a smashed flat section of the uf arm. The one below appears more milled:

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Also wondering if these front trunnions are actually md65? Obviously not the last one. But on my other md63's from 1964 and 1965 they have the triangle with arrow. And the year of manufacture. I would assume an md65 would have the same. These below seem to recent to be md65.

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What are the factory selector markings for a G code rifle?

Since they were semi-auto only - did they have the S FA FF markings like the standard military rifles?
 
Re:

moab said:
Curious about these new underfolders showing up. This isn't first type. But does not appear to be second type either. The second type you show looks like the selector clearance is simply a smashed flat section of the uf arm. The one below appears more milled:

Image


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Also wondering if these front trunnions are actually md65? Obviously not the last one. But on my other md63's from 1964 and 1965 they have the triangle with arrow. And the year of manufacture. I would assume an md65 would have the same. These below seem to recent to be md65.

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Those trunnions look like the ones I got with a couple kits that came from the Bosnain area. Export Md. 90 trunnions
 
Just to maintain accuracy, your statement that all civilian rifles were shipped over is not fully accurate, and there were some that were civilian/military rifles.

The CUR2 and Romak2 shipped as standard capacity capable, had all Romanian components because they met the government version of the second amendment's sporting purpose by not having threaded muzzle and having the same grip/butt stock as the Romak3/PSL.

Also the SAR series was the only rifle imported into the US that was also a military issue weapon. As you stated, various Romanian units were semi-auto only, and Romanian basic training was with semi-auto only using the SAR-1.

Unfortunately the SAR series was banned from importation by ATF because they didn't meet that mythical sporting purpose because it was imported with a standard capacity magwell and stock set.

And now I see that the thread is over a year old! Anyway, a few updates.. :grin:
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Ok guys, I know its been a long time since Ive been here. My apologies. I sort of left the AK world after selling my Romy G.
I was randomly browsing gun boards last night and came across my guide that you see here posted in its entirety on another board. I dont mind this, dont worry! However, there was a response to my guide from someone who claims to have lived in Romania (Weapons Cache Forums member Ayceman) and gave a ton of suggestions for changes and updates to the guide.
I dont really have time to go in and fix everything with the guide right now so here are the suggested updates and changes, copied and pasted from the forum thread. I will update the guide someday soon:

2. The reason why some receivers date back from 1961 is because clones were built starting 1961, before the md. 63 appeared with the donkey dong, although some of the md. 63s were also produced without them too (and I usually see them given to female cadets during training). I've heard from someone that that rifle was called Pistol Mitraliera; model 1961, but I couldn't confirm it.

3. The G versions were not modified md. 63s, but new production (1975) versions based on the 63.

4. The md. 86 doesn't have a 45 degree block, but a double angle block. The part that meets the gas tube is at 45 degrees, and the part that meets the barrel is at 90 degrees.

5. The initial Bakelite handguard was probably inspired by a 5.45 East German furniture that As far as I know was identical except for the wirefolder, which is offset to the left on the md. 86. There's also a straight Bakelite handguard with ribs, like the EG one:
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6. The side rail isn't found on all md. 86s, and it did appear on some 7.62 rifles too.

7. The md. 90, while it is a response to the md. 86, it's basically an md. 63 with the md. 86 wirefolder.

8. The md. 90 is exported as the AIMS, just like the md. 65, because it's a folding stock version, but you can sometimes see it advertised as an AIM with a sidefolder.

9. AIM(S/R/S-74) doesn't mean anything in Romanian, they just replaced the K for and I for some unknown reason. If AKM/AKMS had actually been translated it would have looked like this: PMK/PMKPR.

10. The standard md. 97 is just like an AK-101, but with bakelite/laminate furniture and Wieger mags. It was never adopted (might be in the future if we switch to 5.56), and has a Wieger furniture version. WASR-based (no dimple) semi-autos in 5.56 and 7.62 in Wieger furniture are sold as the Stg-2003 and Stg-2000 by IO.
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11. As for the short barreled (carbine) versions, the official designations are PM/PA md. xx(insert parent model - 65,86,90,97) cu ?eav? scurt? (with short barrel). With the info you're pretty much spot-on, except that the later md. 90 carbines do also have vertical grip handguards, though rarer.

12. There's also a md. 65 carbine, where the gas block and front sight are not integrated, but right next to each other (BTW interesting early sidefolder for the md. 90 (maybe an earlier version than 1990 made simply as a md. 63 version? it looks like a Hungarian sidefolder to me - there were probably a lot of experimental versions with very few examples being produced). The one in the pic is a 5.45 version that I was not aware of, the real md. 65 carbine that I saw looks the same except for the mag.

13. The md. 97 carbine sights read the same as the md. 86 carbine's.

14. Romania did not stop semi-auto (or any) AK production. WASRs are still going off the production line for various markets.

15. The Carfil arsenal mostly produces grenades, explosives, thermobaric warheads and other stuff like this, so to see an AK with an 11 is indeed rare.

16. P is for Priveli?te. Once upon a time Pogrom meant battle, but now it means mass killing of an ethnicity, like Jews for example.

17. 5.56 mags are Wieger mags, so they are interchangeable with East German 5.56 mags.

18. 40 rounders are used more than 75 rounders on 7.62 RPK's (Pu?c? Mitralier? model 1964)
As for Arsenals you got it wrong, but I don't blame you, even I have a hard time understanding:

a. Cugir is still up and running, it's the ARMS Arsenal of Cugir, still producing AK, PSL, PL (bolt action), PKM, md. 96 SMG (occasionally called RATMIL to differentiate from the md. 96 Asalt made by Sadu), and some heavier weaponry. I haven't heard of the big minigun, and it probably isn't a domestic contract anyway. And it is not specialized in 5.56mm or 9mm weapons. Also most of the export weapons have actually been produced in Cugir, not Sadu (including civilian - especially actually).

b. Sadu has had some major financial problems, though it is the biggest producers of ammunition. It also produces he Asalt SMG, and I've recently seen an AK based assault rifle (AK action): http://www.bumbesti-jiu.ro/umsadu/ASSAULT.html
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Apparently it also has a STANAG compatible mag well version and there's also a prototype (?) bullpup conversion for the regular AK on offer, but unless it gets any more orders for it's weapons, the future will be about as bleak as it has been until now.

c. Patromil (formerly Ratmil) is an association of all military/military related products manufacturers, including CN Romarm and other state and private manufacturers.
 
This is mostly incorrect, or incorrectly stated:

4. The md. 86 doesn't have a 45 degree block, but a double angle block. The part that meets the gas tube is at 45 degrees, and the part that meets the barrel is at 90 degrees.

The Md. 86 has a true 45-degree gas block, in fact it is exactly the same as any other AKM pattern 45-degree gas block. It is not a "double angle gas block". Besides inspecting them both internally and off the barrel, you can easily tell because if the lower part of the hole was drilled at a 90 you would see the hole on the bottom of the gas block journal cylinder, like on any Sovoet or Bulgarian 90 degree block.

Now what you are confusing is that the "gas vent" or hole drilled into the Md. 86 barrel is drilled at 90 degrees, so combined with the 45-dredd gas block, the enitire length of the channel the gas travels through (from bore to gas tube cylinder) is basically a double angle. This means they moved the location the hole is drilled on the barrel slightly forward to meet up with the 45-degree gas block exit point in the journal.
 
Interesting, good info! Thanks!
 
Would be nice if this reference sticky could be updated to make changes and add new information:

Slings:

* Romanian slings weren't just brown leather. They also made them in tan (unfinished) versions, as well. Additionally, they had short lengths (for AK) and longer lengths (for RPK, PKM, PSL) with a myriad of different variations of metal clips and retainers, as well as sling widths.

Pistol Grips:

* Romania didn't just make bakelite pistol grips that had the inverted diamond checkered pattern. Romania also made them with a raised diamond checkered pattern as well as used both large and small diamond checkers (grids) on the grips.

Bayonets:

* The first Romanian bayonets didn't have the leather wrap-around "frog." The first bayonets were, indeed, the Romanian Type I bayonets, but utilized a leather belt hanger that is similar to the Hungarian Type I bayonet leather belt hanger that incorporates to hooks - one at each end. And this belt hanger style was copied from a very early Russian variant. The "single hook" leather belt hanger came shortly thereafter. Then, the leather wrap-around "frog" that's seen commonly with the bayonets from Romania.

* Romania also produced a Type II bakelite bayonet but almost all seemed to have been exported to South Africa in an arms contract that was never realized.
 
Probably better suited to the Romanian general topic section. The pic is poor quality, large and grainy. Looks to be a cut and neuthered WASR/SAR etc. Late model from what I can see.
 
Keep the updates and changes coming. I would also like to see a more admission to speculation rather than putting it down as fact concerning reasons behind stampings, G rifles, different factories involvement with which rifle, when and related stampings. There's just really no way to know a lot of this for fact. Heck for all we know the factories are run by a Romanian mafia and any information we do not know or questions related to new evidence darn sure won't be answered and there is no way to believe "maybe after a certain point" what factory did what, when, what's still being produced and not produced and why. Another example of information that needs to be amended an admitted to be speculation is the G rifle only having the ability for semi auto due to a cut sear. We can only speculate as to why that is. Many G kits have contained an unaltered sear.
Reject parts that don't hold up to Romy factory stellar quality control, That's a shot in the dark. There is however a lot o interesting information covered by the OP and I appreciate it! It's strange but out of all the "supposedly" higher end AK's I have, the WASR's peak my interest the most.
Also there was a comment about the SAR 1 being used exclusively for training. That needs to be seriously revisited or taken down. My .02 cents
 
Great sticky / resource here!

One minor caveat: it looks like Linx's cleaning kit guide is no longer online (heheh - Linx has dead links).

Looking around for another guide, the Clayco manual hosted by Dr. Zero is a good resource for cleaning kit usage:
http://www.drzero.org/ak1/pdf/clayco_aks_sport.pdf

-otus
 
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Awesome! This is just what a noob (me) needs to learn about AKs... I converted it to a Word Doc, it is now in my firearms library. Thank you for the hard work in putting this together.
 
I have this was 10/63 single stack thumbhole stock welded thread protector " evil receiver" all matching unbelievably low serial number with the empty triangle before the serial on truion ∆0097
 
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