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Discussion Starter #1
If any of you are still using PayPal, avoid it at all costs.

My business account was banned (permanently limited) in July 2019 for violating their Acceptable Use Policy. I wasn't told what I did, but I assume I sold a gun part they didn't like. At that point, the account is frozen for 180 days.

I had a little over $1K in there, which dwindled down to $597 a few months later because of returns on sales originally done via PayPal on ebay (I now use ebay's payment system).

Until a few days ago, I thought I'd get my money back via a message on my banned account explaining how to access my funds. Maybe they'd send me a check because my account showed the balance being transferred to PayPal. After checking my account a few days ago, I finally noticed that the transfer to PayPal had a note. It stated:

"PayPal's damages caused by Acceptable Use Policy violation."

In other words, PayPal seized my money as a type of fine they arbitrarily determined was my account balance for a violation I supposedly committed they didn't define.

My personal account, which wasn't frozen, that I'd been using to buy things, was also frozen about a week ago for some undefined AUP violation. That $250 balance is now in the 180-day freeze period. I assume they'll seize those funds as well.

Apparently, a lot of people have been experiencing this. I could care less about the money because the amount is small. But I've seen folks getting clocked to the tune of $19K up to $300K and above.

PayPal was sued for doing something similar in 2017 in Zepeda v. PayPal Inc. They settled the case without admitting any wrongdoing.

IN TODAY

I just heard back from Quantum Legal, LLC, which was one of the law firms that argued and won Zepeda v. PayPal Inc. This is very interesting stuff, and shows why these online money transfer companies can't be trusted:

Thank you for contacting Quantum Legal regarding a potential case against PayPal. Unfortunately, we are not pursuing further lawsuits against PayPal or eBay at this time. Both have arbitration clauses included in their agreements which bar class actions and make litigation against them exceedingly difficult for consumers.

The April 2011 United States Supreme Court 5-4 decision called AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion ruled that these types of arbitration clauses are not only enforceable, they also prevent you from pursuing your claim on a class action basis within the private arbitration. Given that your claim is for a relatively small sum of money, it is not economical for us to represent you - or anyone else - individually in arbitration. The one-sided contract you signed takes away your rights, including the right to sue which you had until recently.

We strongly believe that AT&T v. Concepcion is wrong as a matter of law, and unfair in its practical consequences. Consumers are losing access to the courts, and big business now has a situation where people are unable to reasonably fight small fees and widespread injustices. Fortunately, the Concepcion Supreme Court decision can be changed if Congress passes the law entitled the “Arbitration Fairness Act,” which would reverse Concepcion.

Please contact your congressperson and/or senator via the following websites — http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm or http://www.house.gov/representatives/find - and encourage them to vote to pass the Arbitration Fairness Act, which would restore your right to pursue a class action to vindicate your legal rights. The passage of the Arbitration Fairness Act will also send a message to corporate America that they will be held accountable for unfair business practices, no matter how small the individual monetary damage may be.

You can also make a complaint to the Federal Communications Commission.

https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us
 

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Fortunately, the Concepcion Supreme Court decision can be changed if Congress passes the law entitled the “Arbitration Fairness Act,” which would reverse Concepcion.

Please contact your congressperson and/or senator via the following websites - URL]http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm[/URL] or
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find - and encourage them to vote to pass the Arbitration Fairness Act, which would restore your right to pursue a class action to vindicate your legal rights. The passage of the Arbitration Fairness Act will also send a message to corporate America that they will be held accountable for unfair business practices, no matter how small the individual monetary damage may be.

You can also make a complaint to the Federal Communications Commission.

https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us

The possibility of these rules being altered to favor the consumer under a Republican-controlled Senate or FCC is absolutely zero. The takeaway lesson is that if you use PP, withdraw or transfer money to your bank account as soon as it comes in.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The possibility of these rules being altered to favor the consumer under a Republican-controlled Senate or FCC is absolutely zero.

The takeaway lesson is that if you use PP, withdraw or transfer money to your bank account as soon as it comes in.
I agree with you to a point. Asset seizures without any due process piss everyone off.

I'm more focused on dissemination of the information. Companies like PayPal depend on consumer trust to function. If no one trusts them anymore, they'll have to change their behavior or continue to succumb to competition. There are now a lot more online payment options than in the past. PayPal's revenues were down 6% the last quarter.

Also, they've been doing this in other countries, where the laws are different. If we can't hurt them a lot in the US, maybe we can zing them elsewhere. I've heard rumors they're going to be served with a lawsuit in Singapore today.

Negative press would also have an effect. A site with wide distribution could do a really negative story on this and nail them to the wall.
 

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The possibility of these rules being altered to favor the consumer under a Republican-controlled Senate or FCC is absolutely zero. The takeaway lesson is that if you use PP, withdraw or transfer money to your bank account as soon as it comes in.
Correct. This is the Koch-suckers "free market" Ayn Rand LOLbertarian nightmare world we are all forced to live in. Crushing consumers and stealing their money is A-OK because "muh free markets" and stuff. Somewhere along the line - thanks in part to lots of Koch-sucking - America went from "We'll throw your tea into the harbor" to "Corporations crushing your face with a hobnail boot is our values"!
 

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A fellow Ayn Rand hater, how nice! We’ve more in common than I realized. :wink:
 
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Correct. This is the Koch-suckers "free market" Ayn Rand LOLbertarian nightmare world we are all forced to live in. Crushing consumers and stealing their money is A-OK because "muh free markets" and stuff. Somewhere along the line - thanks in part to lots of Koch-sucking - America went from "We'll throw your tea into the harbor" to "Corporations crushing your face with a hobnail boot is our values"!
This is the first time I've agreed with Russian_Bot... must be a full moon.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Correct. This is the Koch-suckers "free market" Ayn Rand LOLbertarian nightmare world we are all forced to live in. Crushing consumers and stealing their money is A-OK because "muh free markets" and stuff. Somewhere along the line - thanks in part to lots of Koch-sucking - America went from "We'll throw your tea into the harbor" to "Corporations crushing your face with a hobnail boot is our values"!
We don't live anywhere near a libertarian economy. We have a crony capitalist system that just happens to be the least bad of all the others. It protects the largest companies through regulatory capture that allows them to remain entrenched and dominant in their markets.

Lawsuits can kill a small business, hence arbitration. But large businesses can use arbitration to squelch class action suits and disallow litigation in the courts.

In a truly free market society acceptable use policies wouldn't even be necessary. They nonetheless exist because of over-regulation and litigiousness.
 

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Call it whatever you like but it's the result of the GOP being bought and paid for with Koch Brothers money and people just like them. Part of the reason they won;t stop immigration. They need fruit pickers and maids and chicken gutters who live 20 packed to a mobile home instead of giving American citizens a decent wage. They own them all - especially Ted "Koch-sucker" Cruz. The GOP is owned by people like this. One of those Koch maniacs ran for president once on the platform of eliminating all regulations on usury. I'd almost vote for a communist like Bernie Sanders just to see these LOLbertarian billionaires - the same ones that allowed your money to be stolen - to be bent over the barrel and publicly humiliated.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Call it whatever you like but it's the result of the GOP being bought and paid for with Koch Brothers money and people just like them. Part of the reason they won;t stop immigration. They need fruit pickers and maids and chicken gutters who live 20 packed to a mobile home instead of giving American citizens a decent wage. They own them all - especially Ted "Koch-sucker" Cruz. The GOP is owned by people like this. One of those Koch maniacs ran for president once on the platform of eliminating all regulations on usury. I'd almost vote for a communist like Bernie Sanders just to see these LOLbertarian billionaires - the same ones that allowed your money to be stolen - to be bent over the barrel and publicly humiliated.
So you believe that billionaires in the US stole their billions and didn't make them? No billionaires ever earned their wealth by creating products and services, along with millions of jobs, that made everyone's lives better?

The Kochs were instrumental in passing criminal justice reform. Were you aware of that?

The vast majority of regulations are useless and wasteful. They give government bureaucrats jobs by diverting productive activity into production-destroying policing. By supposedly preventing bad things from happening, these regulations actually prevent innumerably good things from happening.

A decent wage is based on what the market will bear along with the value of the skills that are brought to the table. Only 2.1% of workers in the US earn the minimum wage. The vast majority (97.9%) earn a market-based wage. And the overwhelming amount of companies are small businesses (99%) with one to a handful of employees. 83% of small business owners take an annual salary of less than $100,000, and 30% report that they take no salary at all.

Sanders, AOC, and other socialist acolytes are economically illiterate. Don't even get me started down that road.

If we want to see our Second Amendment rights completely destroyed, just vote in the folks that want the government to control everything. The government already pays nearly 50% of all healthcare costs (that's why the system is broken in the first place), and now they want the government to take over all of it (20% of the US economy). No thank you.
 

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So you believe that billionaires in the US stole their billions and didn't make them?
Yes.

The Kochs were instrumental in passing criminal justice reform. Were you aware of that?
Hooray! Crack-dealing felons released back onto the streets! EXACTLY why I voted for Trump! #MAGA

If we want to see our Second Amendment rights completely destroyed, just vote in the folks that want the government to control everything.
Imagine thinking that voting for some stuffed-shirt Koch-sucker politician is gonna "protect your rights" - especially your gun rights. My rights are protected by GOD and my trigger finger. This is why dressing up in camo and standing in a "freedom cage" - like that public humiliation that took place in VA - gets you absolutely nowhere.
 

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Regardless of any rules they may have, I just don't see how seizing someone's money is legal.
It's not legal. In a sane world you would be able to walk into PayPal's office and grab their CEO by the nape of the neck and demand the money he stole back right then and there. Instead YOU would end up in prison just for objecting to someone literally stealing your money no different than a mugger in the street. In fact, I have 1,000X more respect for someone who has the balls to stick a gun in your face than I do for some slimy Koch-sucker who paid a bunch of gangster politicians to make his thievery LEGAL.
 

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And people wonder why I insist on paying folks with a US Post Office money order. Costs me $1.25 for each one, but I know the person I am buying from WILL get paid with REAL money or what passes for it from our government.

It also works best the other way too and I know when I GET one the money is available either at the Post Office or my bank.
 

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Regardless of any rules they may have, I just don't see how seizing someone's money is legal.
exactly, F their rule, you dont take someone's money. they have been doing this for years and no one has been able to stand up to them, One day it will happen and they will loose Billions paying and settling people in and out of court. Let them continue, Thieves dont last.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Regardless of any rules they may have, I just don't see how seizing someone's money is legal.
It's probably not legal, but they can do it until someone takes them to court. And under the current agreement everyone signs with PayPal (that we don't read), arbitration is the only option and class-actions are prohibited.

In my case, the total they'll seize is around $800. That's about 4 hours of a decent lawyer's time. That makes it quixotic to pursue.

Regardless, I'm going to do everything I can to be a thorn in their side -- even if they give me my money back.

I just got a message in my PayPal account. We'll see what they said to my emails to their AUP folks...
 

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This cooperate stealing, is pretty easy though. They make use sign some useless form like they want to be intermediaries for a transaction. But they are after your Money, They take you Money, Get a host of heavenly Harvard lawyers, they can drag the case for years and watch the accuser grow tired and finally give up. While they keep stealing. No one can touch them.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Here's the response from PayPal I received today:

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

PayPal’s [U.S./Canada] User Agreement states that sellers who violate our Acceptable Use Policy are liable for damages caused by the violation. Our policy also states that account holders acknowledge and agree that [$2,500 USD or $2,500 CAD] per violation is a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal’s actual damages.

Additionally, PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account controlled by a seller who commits a violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. These types of violations covered include the sale of prohibited adult or offensive content, weapons, drugs, counterfeit goods, etc. We have dedicated teams and robust internal processes to ensure adherence to our Acceptable Use Policy, and the company may look to recover damages from sellers who have violated our agreement.

This is a longstanding contractual agreement with our sellers that was agreed upon during enrollment. Details of the User Agreement can be found on the User Agreement page of our website.

Sincerely,
PayPal

Tell everyone about this. We need to get people abandoning PayPal for other services.

I no longer use them and don't even miss PayPal. My merchant processor is pro-Second Amendment and now gets a lot of that business. The ebay payments system gets a huge chunk as well.
 

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And just like that we disagree again... we probably shouldn't dig dead people up and feed their remains to dogs...

WTH?!?
Why not? They did it to the man who saved Spain from communism.

You either defeat your enemies and desecrate their graves and monuments or live to see them do it to yours. Half measures is what got us here.
 
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