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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's well known that the BATF considers drilling the evil third hole to be conversion to a machine gun. I spoke recently with a legal expert who clarified that the reason is that while drilling a hole is not considered "readily modified", dropping in parts that rely on such a hole is, and any gun that can have the parts dropped in and fire FA is, legally, an MG. I didn't realize until after we hung up that the hole alone is not enough; there also needs to be a slot cut into the receiver guide rail. Almost nobody mentions this slot, so I wonder if anyone here knows - is it too considered an MG conversion? The reason I ask is because I'm working on an invention that wouldn't need any additional holes (and my consultant, who didn't come cheap so I'm not asking them again, advised that simply drilling a hole in a different spot is ok), but it would need that slot.
 

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So let me get this straight... you pay some "consultant" big money to answer your questions, but you want US to answer them for free? It's a moot point, however... I think I can speak for most here when I say that we're not into giving advice to people about how to skirt the laws on FA's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I was under the impression that forums didn't charge. If they did, the quality of that answer would elicit a prompt demand for a refund. The gun this pertains to neither is nor will be an FA, and the part in question is not an FA sear or anything that makes the gun FA. I'm gathering as much data as I can, from all sources, in advance of submitting a formal determination request to the ATF.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm hoping that a copy of a writtten determination (that it's legal) will be enough to trump a gung-ho field agent. Any experience with such things?
 

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I'm hoping that a copy of a writtten determination (that it's legal) will be enough to trump a gung-ho field agent. Any experience with such things?
ATF is notorious for using caveats in their rulings, basically saying that "this is just our opinion, and not admissible in court". One famous example is "Akins Accelerator", where ATF overruled their own ruling: Akins Accelerator . So if you have a ruling from ATF, keep in mind that any agent can question it and bring it up the ladder. The final outcome might be in your favor, but you'll probably be financially ruined at that point.

The funny thing is that they can be very vague when you ask then for clarification on something, but when they audit or raid you they will all of a sudden know exactly what the rules say. Like Trump said, ATF is a rogue organization. Here's some good reading about how they operate: History of the ATF: How the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms Became Corrupt & Abusive
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I read the Federal Register that talks about this, and am about to read the other link you sent. What I gather is that yes, they're a bit loosey-goosey with rules and then changing their mind about it, but there does seem to be a semblance of following principles, not pure caprice. Based on the legal reasoning presented during the discussion about the bumpstock ban, my device is functionally nowhere near the relevant grey area. More importantly, when they did change their mind about Akins' device, they didn't retroactively charge him or any of his customers with criminal MG conversion. At this point, my focus is to make sure the device works and won't get me in trouble with an overgrown hall monitor. I gather that a written determination will suffice for that. Ifnwhen it comes time to market it... there, the determination may indeed not be enough.
 

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I read the Federal Register that talks about this, and am about to read the other link you sent. What I gather is that yes, they're a bit loosey-goosey with rules and then changing their mind about it, but there does seem to be a semblance of following principles, not pure caprice. Based on the legal reasoning presented during the discussion about the bumpstock ban, my device is functionally nowhere near the relevant grey area. More importantly, when they did change their mind about Akins' device, they didn't retroactively charge him or any of his customers with criminal MG conversion. At this point, my focus is to make sure the device works and won't get me in trouble with an overgrown hall monitor. I gather that a written determination will suffice for that. Ifnwhen it comes time to market it... there, the determination may indeed not be enough.
Ok, I've heard just about enough of this crap. Stop asking other members ways to skirt NFA laws, or you will find yourself on the other end of the ban hammer. The best advice I can give to you if you want a FA so badly is to first:
Get a clue
Second, get the appropriate license to build them legally.

Nuff said about this subject, move on please.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's not an FA and won't be. It isn't even a grey area like bumpstocks (were). I'm asking for people's experience with the ATF regarding particular rules and their enforcement, not "how do I get around this law?" If you're telling me, in the capacity of a forum mod, to not post about anything NFA-related, it's your prerogative to do so and my obligation, as a forum member, to comply. Crappy as such censorship is, it's a private forum and you're free to do that. But don't misconstrue what I post, nor its intent.
 

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You are asking people who are not lawyers and who are strangers on a forum for legal advise. That makes sense. Either talk to a lawyer or the ATF.
 

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If your an SOT call the NFA division for clarification.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

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So let me get this straight... you pay some "consultant" big money to answer your questions, but you want US to answer them for free? It's a moot point, however... I think I can speak for most here when I say that we're not into giving advice to people about how to skirt the laws on FA's.
Skirting the law DOES NOT equal breaking the law. We need people who are innovative and hopefully someday repeal the Hughes Amendment, so people can register new machine guns.. Get with the program.
 

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Skirting the law DOES NOT equal breaking the law. We need people who are innovative and hopefully someday repeal the Hughes Amendment, so people can register new machine guns.. Get with the program.
First, I never said anything about breaking the law. Second, if you think that some innovative person/people are going to get the Hughes Amendment repealed, then I've got some beachfront property to sell you in Arizona. The only way that will happen, is with the total collapse of our government. Sure... I would love to see it repealed. However, even if it was, it's not like we would be able to run out and register a bunch of machine guns at $200 a pop. They would end up updating the tax, and it would be some crazy amount that would make it practically unobtainable for most people. "Get with the program"... what a dork.
 

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Skirting the law DOES NOT equal breaking the law. We need people who are innovative and hopefully someday repeal the Hughes Amendment, so people can register new machine guns.. Get with the program.
When was the last time a gun control law was overturned at the federal level? It will never happen.
 

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Skirting the law DOES NOT equal breaking the law. We need people who are innovative and hopefully someday repeal the Hughes Amendment, so people can register new machine guns.. Get with the program.
What the heck ! Thought you fell off the face of the AK World
 
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Bring on an updated Tax. Who on this forum wouldn't pop 2K to convert atleast one of their builds to select fire.
 

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Bring on an updated Tax. Who on this forum wouldn't pop 2K to convert atleast one of their builds to select fire.
Unfortunately, I think it would be a lot higher than that. even if it were just adjusted for inflation, $200 in 1934 would be the equivalent of $4200 today. However, I think it would be even higher than that.
 
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