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Discussion Starter #1
ohh , nooo .

without a SC , your CARBINE ammo should be considerd mostly as anti-personnel .

i dont mean classic AP but , just common steelcore .

these little carbines need every bit of advantage they can muster . from a pure MATERIALS/PENETRATION perspective , the steelcore carbine rounds = LCB in 762x51 and such , under many circumstances . the Soviets understood this when they designed M43 for use against MECHANIZED FORCES and all the trappings that come along with mechanization .

at the time it was put into production a dual-core bullet like this was high-tech . while COST/EFFECTIVE it wasnt CHEAPEST . when the Soviets withdrew aid from YUGOSLAVIA they took their bullet technology home with them . they then had to research/design there own leadcore bullet for 762x39 weapons because they could not duplicate M43 on their own .

here is an example of 762x39 PS ball performace in the real world . i recognise this type of bullet/core damage from my tests against sheetmetal and hesitate a guess at 400M . no carbine leadcore round could do this anywhere near that range .

http://www.191ahc.org/little.htm

found other examples and pictures on line ? post them here :smile:
 

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Good find. This is turning out to be a valuable section of this board. I keep my SAR 1 bone stock, the urge to add-on (like the AR guys) is turned into musings about ammo. Rather have another case with Russian writing on it than the latest Dot Aimer.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
here is a penetration comparison by C.E.Harris from back in the 80s .

Penetration Tests of 7.62x39 mm Ammunition by CEH Oct., 1986. All firings at 50 yds. range against standard CMU ("cinder block")
WEAPON___ CAL._____ AMMUNITION____ TEST RESULTS
AKM_____ 7.62x39mm____ Yugo M67______ Block hit end-on , perforated web, bullet lead core broke up and only marked next layer.
__________Chinese PS______ Block hit end-on, perf. first and steel core second webs, cratered third web, without cracking it.
AR-15____ 5.56x45mm_______M193________ Block hit end-on, perf, first web lead core and broke up, marked 2nd next web
__________________________ M855________ Block hit end-on, perf. first and steel core second webs leaving no damage to 3rd web other than deposit of debris. Repeat test of M855 broadside hit gave complete perforation both sides of CMU, spraying witness tgt. 3 ft. behind with fragments, steel core penetrated 3/8" into 1x2 SYP tgt. frame.
GARAND____ .30-'06________ Ball M2_______Block hit end-on perforated first and 2nd lead core second webs of CMU, heavily cratering third web, and cracking lengthwise.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
here is something that popped up as a sideline to the 762x39 sheetmetal testing i've done the last couple years .





maximum range to penetrate Yodas 3.17mm (10GA , 1/8") mildsteel sheet
CALCULATED , from NATO TESTS and , my direct shootings .


556x45___________M855 = 832M (steel tip 1033fps)*
762x51 ___________M80 = 717M (lead core ball , BC .195 G7 /2800fps MV , 500ft.lbs. nessisary)*
CALCULTED
762x39 steelcore CH 'PS' = 622M (20.5"B SKS 1033fps)*
AS TESTED
762x39 steelcore CH 'PS' = 600M (16.25"B AK 1033fps . simulated @500M with reduced load-2000fps muzzel velocity @86F )

762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 450M (20.5"B SKS , Wolf 80F. , barely )
762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 400M (16.25"B AK , Wolf , G-Tiger . dent at 500M = .45 acp 230grn @21ft. , 800fps MV)
762x39 leadcore HP- BT = 385M (16.25"B AK , Wolf , Klimovsk . no complete penetrations @400M)
762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 400M (20.5"B SKS Barnaul = +50fps above nominal @80F.)
762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 325M (16.25"B AK , Rom 322/'97 , Uly FMJ , 68F.)

762x39 leadcore US67FMJ= 288M (16.25"B AK , Win USA , Rem UMC , loaded to nominal AK-47 velocity . Win , Rem , Fed factory SPs similar but slightly less on average . none of the US67s penetrations @300M 60F. a couple penetrations of many Rem UMC @300M 80+F.)

AR-15 5.56x45mm(16"B , no chrono data)
M193 SoAfrican , 400M (none @425M)
M193 LakeCity'99, 425M (dent only @500M w/some lead embedded in dent . dent = 9mm Mak 92grn @21ft. , 1000fps )


maximum range to penetrate NATO 3.45mm (8GA)TEST PLATE
NATO TEST

556x45__________M855 = 640M (steel tip 1300fps)
762x51 __________M80 = 620M (lead core ball 650ft.lbs. nessisary)
CALCULATED
762x39 steel coreCH'PS' = 425M (20.5"B SKS 1300fps nessisary)*
762x39 steel coreCH'PS' = 395M (16.25"B AK 1300fps nessisary)*

762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 311M (20.5"B SKS 650ft.lbs. nessisary)*
762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 285M (16.25"B AK 650ft.lbs. nessisary)*
762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 278M (20.5"B SKS 650ft.lbs. nessisary)*
762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 251M (16.25"B AK 650ft.lbs. nessisary)*

762x39 leadcore US67FMJ= 224M (16.25"B AK 650ft.lbs. nessisary)*

maximum range to penetrate one side of a US steel pot helmet
NATO TEST

556x45_________M855 =1300M (830fps)
762x51__________M80 = 800M (1100fps , 397ft.lbs)
CALCULATED
762x39 steel coreCH'ps'= 823M (SKS , 912fps , 225ft.lbs. )*
762x39 steel coreCH'ps'= 791M (AK-47, 912fps , 225ft.lbs.)*

762x39 leadcoreFMJ-BT= 473M (20.5"B SKS 397ft.lbs.)*
762x39 leadcoreFMJ-BT= 440M (16.25"B AK , 397ft.lbs)*

762x39 leadcoreM67FMJ= 416M (20.5"B SKS, 397ft.lbs)*
762x39 leadcoreM67FMJ= 384M (16.25"B AK, 397ft.lbs)*


762x39 lead core US67 = 342M (W-W USA FMJ @ 2310fps MV chronoed from SKS, 397ft.lbs)*



* = calculated at nominal velocity and standard atmosphere 59 deg F.

3.17mm mild steel sheet = unused surplus from closed auto stamping plant that made alternator brackets and such . sheared into 1' x 1' or 2' x 2' squares . shot free-standing leaned against rail .

there is a slight velocity diff between the ss109 and Chinese PS (80fps) in what is nessisary to penetrate a steel helmet . i thought it fairly meaningless concerning the thicker sheets/plates . as was reported in the other post by JA , the Russians claim 80/90% penetrations @900M with M43 . 830fps comes @~990M for 762x39 . i think it safe to assume my calculated range =100% penetrations .

what passes through in these MAXimum range penetrations ( this info was not revieled by NATO )with LeadCoreBall is equivilant too a .32 / .22 short in the form of an elongated 'spitwad' or a distorted 'cone' containing a small piece of jacket tip . the jacket is splayed out flat or curled back like a hollow mushroom and half or more of the core splashes away on the surface . closer = larger and more powerful penetration . at some point (all @200M) closer , the sheet 'plugs' and the whole bullet + sheet plug penetrate .
steelcore M43 'PS' , the core only beyond 450M (10GA). core + leadsleave closer. @400M core (sheet , 3 P-bords and into backstop) + lead sleave ( into middle of second P-board )
5.556x45 , M855/ss109 , the steel tip and a tiny lead squiggle .
5.56x45 M193 , only fragments and a eyedropper-drop-size piece of lead .

NATO test results from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 86/MVT.htm

ammunition specs
http://www.igman.co.ba/ammunition.htm
http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt
http://www.prvipartizan.com/products/mi ... s_ammo.htm
http://www.imisammo.com/mil_2.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #5
if i ever get to post pics i'll show you my armour block test but , really , its no big difference than what LOLLYGAGGER shows in his pics . common mildsteel core ammo was never intended to be AP but , intended for dual use against personnel AND MECHANIZED forces , ie , all the trappings of mechanization that are not armored , THE STUFF . lead core ball is only intended for use against personnel .

there is little difference between 762x39 LeadCore and SteelCore up close , @50M ALL leadcore and mild steelcore penetrate 2 , 10ga sheets to dent the 3rd . all LC and mild SC full power rifle rounds penetrate 3 sheets to splash or dent the 4th . pseudo 762x39 AP like loads , put up in and fired from 303B penetrated 4 sheets to stick in the 5th .

special conditions showed more qualities than revield by just sheetmetal .

i explored some of those special conditions in a test of 1 mildsteel sheet (10ga) over stacked 3/4" partical boards @50M.

ALL LEADCORE 7.62x39
_____________________________sheet and 3 boards

303B and 7.62x51 LCB
_____________________________sheet and 5 boards (board 6 destroyed by 6 shots as pulverized by hammer)

CHINESE 'PS' steelcore
_____________________________sheet and 3 to 4 boards (whole bullet)
7 to 9 boards core only , the one that penetrated only 7 boards , penetrated 6" inside board 7 to the outer edge . others exited the sides of the 12"squ boards.

i should point out that .45 ball @21ft. penetrates 3 of these boards in a stack of many , unsheilded by the sheetmetal like above , of course .
 

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Discussion Starter #6
another test showed this penetration of 10ga sheet over 3/4" thick partical boards @200M (24"squares)
ALL LEADCORE 762x39
_________________________sheet and 1 board or less .

@300M
scant penetrations by 7.62x39 HPBT/FMJBT leadcore only . when they occured only lead squirts or cones penetrated the first board . M67 and US67 types , dents only .

@400M
CHINESE 'PS' STEELCORE
_________________________sheet , board 1 = jacket , board 2= leadsleave , core only 3 boards and into the backstop

@500M
CHINESE 'PS' STEELCORE
_________________________sheet penetrated by core only . core enbedded into 1st board without penetrating it .
 

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Discussion Starter #7
just some test photos . i've never done any photos for real like this before so only some came out nice .




Left - Chinese 7.62x39 PS , 31 over 70 through 1/8" mildsteel sheet @500M

Right - Chinese 31 over 75 sectioned + core recoverd from rivited into 3/8" hardend steel @200M
 

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Discussion Starter #8
here is my 1.5" thick steel block . its about the same hardness/tuffness as barrel steel . not quite as hard as cheap APC armor .

the 2 obvious pokeholes were made by PSEUDO 762x39 AP , loaded to AK47 like velocity/weights and fired from the same old 303 british cases the european AP bullets came out of . ammunitionstore sold it years ago .

the only real diff being the 303s 1 in 10.5" LH twist compared to 1 in 9.45" RH twist of all commie rifles in the calibre . the one in the middle a 120gr hit the block at about 2200fps . the one at 11:00 a 140gr hit it about 2000fps . both penetrated about .6" and bounced away threw the trees while i hid behind 1/2" thick hardox plate . there were a mile or so of trees behind me with nobody in them .

true AP in this calibre is just not worth the danger it generates for the shooter and everyone around him considering the cost and performance . the soviets dropped it . you should too . of those that produce it like the FINNs , it is special ammo for special use by especially trained troops .



@6:00 is a hit from 7.9mm Yugo 198gr @2310fps MV
@12:00 , 762x39 plated steel jacket M67 @2300fps
@9:00 , Chinese factory 31 steelcore @2330fps
@3:00 , Romanian 7.9mm mauser , 155gr steelcore @2475fps

you can see the common NON-AP steelcore rounds made a bit of a moosh spot . its not very deep .

EVERYONE HERE THAT FIGURED THEY COULD DAMAGE/DISABLE AN APC OR OTHER ARMORED VEHICLE WITH AN AK47 , raise your hand !

i thought not .
 

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I know I can. I can take down any of those cheapo vehicles with my AK- even that steel plate, no problem.



Oh did I forget to mention the PSL is an AK and I have Soviet APIT... :twisted:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
here is the flipside of that same block . the AP hole in the middle was from a european Hirtenberger type (blunt point) 152gr that hit the block about 2500fps from the same 303B loads and penetrated almost one and a quarter inches . it was stuck in the block after fireing but , fell out on its own later (recovered core shown below).

it would shurely have pierced the block from 7.62x51 @2800fps ;



the block has heavy rust 'cus i shot it with a 8mm FN tracer round . the caliper covers most of that pock mark .

the other holes are ;

@1:00 from a .300WM 180grn W-W factory load , .8" deep with a high splash ridge perminently frozen in steel .
@6:00 from S&B 8mm Mauser 196gr plated steeljacket , 2525fps
@8:00 a 30-06 milsurp round from a Garand , unknown velocity . it too has a high splash ridge but is only half as deep as the WIN MAG hole.
@9:00 a pock from a 303B handload w/Sierra match HPBT .
@10:00 from 556x45 68gr hpbt from 24"barrel .

the mark just under and to the right of the AP hole is hardly more than a paint splash from a .30carb SP , only .004" deep .



the 2 pointy FN cores were PSEUDO 762x39 , loaded and fired from the 303 like described above , recovered from mild steel sheets separated by styrafoam @50M . they both penetrated only 4 sheets to stick in the 5th .

the stubbie AP core on the right was also recovered , impailed in the 5th sheet , from a 2750 fps load that i THOUGHT was a M2 AP bullet but turned out to be a rare european 762x51 HEI-AP bullet . its basically the fireing pin to a plastic capsule with a primer in its base , protected by some lead core .
 

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freerangeYODA said:
the mark just under and to the right of the AP hole is hardly more than a paint splash from a .30carb SP , only .004" deep.
DANG... well, so much for my M-1 Carbine antitank rifle... :mrgreen:

Stupid question, how would say a Wolf steel jacketed FMJ round compare with that SP?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Q-gunner2 said:
Stupid question, how would say a Wolf steel jacketed FMJ round compare with that SP?

just like on the first block pic , the one labeled M67 @12:00 .

any difference in impact between FMJBT / M67 flatbase / US67 flat base LEAD CORE only starts showing up on target at long range , 200m and more . otherwise , same energy - same weight - same damage .

copper or platedsteel jackets didnt seem to matter in any penetration test ? i had always thought the steeljackets would penetrate better . no dice . didnt matter thew wood , steelover wood , sheetsteel , sand , it just plain didnt matter .

EXCEPT plated steel jackets get GUNGGAWADS of sparks against or threw steel . rust on the target causes MORE SPARKS .
 

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Rust causing more sparks makes sense, a chemechal reaction with the air that gets disrupted by high heat/impact energy.

No no no, when I said Wolf steel jacketed, I meant .30 Carbine ammo, not 7.62x39mm... sorry, didn't specify. :oops:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Q-gunner2 said:
Rust causing more sparks makes sense, a chemechal reaction with the air that gets disrupted by high heat/impact energy.
no . its friction . like , its hiting a 180,000 rpm grinding wheel . rust is abrasive .
 

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That makes sense too. Either way, know how the Wolf .30 Carbine hits?
 
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