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Discussion Starter #1
I have a buddy who insists that if you build a rifle from a flat or 80% receiver, you have to submit a serial # or get a serial # from the ATF. Is this so? Does every gun need a serial # and have to be registered with the feds? :confused:
 

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The serial number on the trunnion is the number for the rifle. If you transfer it, you must put the name of the maker and the city and state where it was made on the receiver.
 

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ACMcom said:
The serial number on the trunnion is the number for the rifle. If you transfer it, you must put the name of the maker and the city and state where it was made on the receiver.
Are you sure about that? I've been looking for a reference, but can't find one at the moment. I believe if the gun enters commerce, it is supposed to have the excise tax paid.

ATF says you cannot make a gun with the intent to sell it without being a licensed manufacturer. Ingraving it might look like intent. What if you decide to sell it after you build it? Who knows, but don't take it too casually. It might be big problems.

If you buy a receiver, and install it on a used trunnion with a serial number on it, the serial number is the number on the receiver, not the trunnion.

If you make a receiver, and install it on a used trunnion with a serial number on it, people will assume that the serial number is stamped on the trunnion, but I believe the ATFs definition of a serial number is a number that tax was paid on (and records are kept of), by a manufacturer..

I have seen guns at shows that were on 'U bend it' flats... and no markings other than on the trunnion.

Anybody have some links?




..and don't forget about your state and local laws. Some states don't like home built guns (Oregon, California...)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My buddy is adamant about the "if you build a gun it needs a serial #" thing, does anyone know of a link to the pertinent regulation? I looked at the ATF sight and did not really find any answer to that. :roll:
 

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If you are building it for your own personal use, then a serial number is not required. however, the ATF sugguest you at least put one on it so if the rifle is ever stolen or lost it is identifiable. If you ever decide to sell the rifle down the road, then all the markings that are required by 27 CFR 478.92 have to be stamped on your homemade receiver, ie. your name, city and state, model number, serial number and caliber

Read the last paragraph of this ATF letter:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

Here is the link to 27 CFR 478.92

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 478.92.htm


As for the just using the serial number that is on the trunion, if you ever decide to sell it later down the road, that's too gray of a area for someone to say that would be OK. You would be better served to pose that question to the ATF tech branch, and get the answer from them. Now, if it was me, and I was going to sell that homemade rifle later down the road, I would stamp that number that is on the trunion on the bottom of the receiver, just to cover myself. Along with all the other markings required, But that is me.

As for the excise tax, I believe that does not come into play if you do not have a manufaturer licence and it is not your means of income, But the best way to find out about that is write the ATF tech branch. Also, be very, very careful about building and selling, if you have a bad habit of build rifles and selling them, you can get in serious trouble with the ATF.
 

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Yes the ATF says that you don't need one but your local goverment may say other wise SO CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS! Sorry to throw a wrench in the works but better safe than sorry.
 

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blkbd said:
Yes the ATF says that you don't need one but your local goverment may say other wise SO CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS! Sorry to throw a wrench in the works but better safe than sorry.
Yep that is a very good point, thanks for throwing that in there. Sometimes we forget that we also have to abide by local and state laws as well, not just federal
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for the info, I think this answers the question.
 

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Remember that once you have attached the trunnion to the bent flat or finished bent blank the firearm now has a serial number as suggested by the alphabet soup boys.

I would NEVER stamp or engrave the other information which is required in the event of a transfer unless I was about to transfer the firearm. As stated above our friends might claim that doing so was evidence of an intent to transfer. Based on that "intent" they could charge you with being an unlicensed manufacturer.

:bh:
 

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ACMcom said:
Remember that once you have attached the trunnion to the bent flat or finished bent blank the firearm now has a serial number as suggested by the alphabet soup boys.
Care to post some proof about that? Like a letter from the ATF stating that.
 
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I have a dumb question about the serial number thing:

If you bend a flat and build a gun without a serial number but then add your name, etc. to sell it; I would assume there would be little resale?

I would think an obvious home build would have little resale value
compared to one built on a regular manufactured receiver. Perhaps
not? I don't know that much about AKs but I would rather have a
DCI or Global trades receiver than a home made one with someones
name, etc stamped on it.
 

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eodinert said:
ACMcom said:
The serial number on the trunnion is the number for the rifle. If you transfer it, you must put the name of the maker and the city and state where it was made on the receiver.
Are you sure about that? I've been looking for a reference, but can't find one at the moment. I believe if the gun enters commerce, it is supposed to have the excise tax paid.

ATF says you cannot make a gun with the intent to sell it without being a licensed manufacturer. Ingraving it might look like intent. What if you decide to sell it after you build it? Who knows, but don't take it too casually. It might be big problems.

If you buy a receiver, and install it on a used trunnion with a serial number on it, the serial number is the number on the receiver, not the trunnion.

If you make a receiver, and install it on a used trunnion with a serial number on it, people will assume that the serial number is stamped on the trunnion, but I believe the ATFs definition of a serial number is a number that tax was paid on (and records are kept of), by a manufacturer..

I have seen guns at shows that were on 'U bend it' flats... and no markings other than on the trunnion.

Anybody have some links?




..and don't forget about your state and local laws. Some states don't like home built guns (Oregon, California...)

You are 100% right as the ATF goes.


Remember that once you have attached the trunnion to the bent flat or finished bent blank the firearm now has a serial number as suggested by the alphabet soup boys.
Trunnion has nothing to do with serial number. It is solely the receiver that is comcerned. If it were, there would be confusion as to which serial number to use on a kit built with a 100% rec, since trunnion AND receiver would have a serial number.
 

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As far as I know the only time the trunnion comes into play is, if that is the serial number to the rifle (say a factory rifle or full auto). That is the reason people have to turn down a krink barrel to fit a chines trunnion. I could be wrong though.
 

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Personally, if I was going to sell a homebuilt AK, I would cut the receiver off of it and sell it as a parts kit. Then the question about engraving is mute, although it is required when sold as a complete gun along with state, city, builders name, serial, and caliber. The thing you need to keep in mind is that you are the manufacturer and are then subject to similar liabilities as any commercial manufacturer. Just imagine selling an AK you made to billy bob and it blows up and hurts him or he shoots his drunk uncle with it. Would you think you wouldn't be named in a legal action? Sell that SOB as a parts kit if you ever part ways with it.
 

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If the trunnion is not part of the receiver once it is riveted to the sheet metal why isn't there a serial number on the sheet metal of a WASR?
The only serial number on those rifles is on the trunnion. Are those rifles all illegal? I don't think so.
 
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Well, Century and anyone else that makes their own receivers to build the rifles in semi-format has a manufacturer's license.
They then enter the nuber off the trunnion, their other information is engraved on the receiver.
They enter that number with the BATFE as the number of the firearm.
I think it is their license that allows them to be able to use the trunnion number as the serial number.

Then, I am rarely right in these discussions so I will go back to just reading again. :wink:
 

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Also a WASR is factory built gun that is imported and modified. They dont make them they just buy them. They don't need a serial number on the receiver. Trunnions have nothing to do with home builds. It only comes into play on factory built guns or manufactures of kits that choose to use that serial number.
 

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First, remember that a firearm built from a flat or a bent blank is not required to have a serial number. The BATFE only suggests that it have one. Next, remember that the trunnion becomes a part of the receiver when it is permanently affixed the the sheet metal. Now ask yourself this question: Why can't I use the number on the trunnion as the serial number (which I'm NOT REQUIRED to have) for this firearm?

The answer is: You can.

Hint: Once you permanently attach the trunnion to the sheet metal, how is it different than a receiver (a trunnion permanently attached to sheet metal) made in Romania?

Answer: It is not different.

I think what has people confused is the fact that the BATFE requires that a "100%" receiver made by a manufacturer has to have a serial number on it. That is because the government wants to keep the exception which allows people to build their own firearms as narrow as possible. To do so they simply ruled that a bent piece of sheet metal with holes in it and rails attached was a firearm. That was done in order to reduce the number of firearms they can't keep track of.
 
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