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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At the end of the year (2005) Israel was promising to bomb Iranian :evil: weapons facilities in late march if they (the Iranians) didn't halt their nuke programs. The plans and the preperations have been made. It is now March and I am curious what all effects that everyone thinks this would have on average Joe Americans. Oil prices? Problems with our Allies? WW3? Ammo shortage in US? (J/K) US involvement? Just some thoughts I had. What do you guys think?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_ ... 970000.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 562716.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183349,00.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/ ... d=washfile
 

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Just another situation in the Middle East on the verge of disaster...it's not even a matter of if or when, just a matter of which disaster hits first.
 

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If the world of men, and the Middle East especially, is a chaotic system then it is not hard to predict what may happen, it is impossible. Although I think we can bet heavy that oil prices will spike and maybe the whole oil market re-configure itself.
 

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I remember QUITE well when they did it to Libya and ya know what??..........go for it my Jewish friends! Do what needs to be done and do it SOON!!!!! :cool:

Of course that's MY 2? and YMMV :neutral:
 

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Iran and the new leadership of Palestine (Hamas) have a quid pro quo going on. If Israel attacks Iran then Hamas has vowed to attack Israel. I think that we would see a lot of nations scrambling to resolve the situation before it became uncontainable. What I dont know is if that would be possible. :neutral:
 

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Hey IED?? Where are you at?? :wink:
 

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Iraqi civil war already in the works.
Maniac on the brink of getting a nuke.
Hamas controlling Palestine.

Get out now, set up defenses here, build a wall along the southern border, stock up on ammo. :confused:
 

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I believe Israel is ready to "throw down" with everyone involved.

They will not be "exterminated" again as they were during WWII. They will definitely protect their existence, the way they did by bombing Iraq's nuclear reactor in the early 80s.

Since Iran has delivered a threat from the Head of State, I see no reason why Israel won't deal with it. Better for them to take on Hamas and Iran at the same time, and knock out two birds with one stone. I think they are just waiting for someone to pull their trigger, to unleash hell on both countries.

I believe other nations are mucking it up by trying to bring peace to Israel and Palestine........Let Israel deal with their neighbors, the same way they did in bibilical times. Had this same situation happened 2000 years ago, they would have invaded, killed everyone, and problem would have been solved....
 

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Krinkfreak said:
I believe Israel is ready to "throw down" with everyone involved.

They will not be "exterminated" again as they were during WWII. They will definitely protect their existence, the way they did by bombing Iraq's nuclear reactor in the early 80s.

Since Iran has delivered a threat from the Head of State, I see no reason why Israel won't deal with it. Better for them to take on Hamas and Iran at the same time, and knock out two birds with one stone. I think they are just waiting for someone to pull their trigger, to unleash hell on both countries.

I believe other nations are mucking it up by trying to bring peace to Israel and Palestine........Let Israel deal with their neighbors, the same way they did in bibilical times. Had this same situation happened 2000 years ago, they would have invaded, killed everyone, and problem would have been solved....
regardless it will be an entertaining 6 days again :mrgreen:

sit back with the drink and meal in hand, awww yeah prime time live TV. :twisted:
 

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I really enjoyed the way they went in and dealt with the militants in the Jenin Refugee Camp....
 

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Krinkfreak said:
I really enjoyed the way they went in and dealt with the militants in the Jenin Refugee Camp....
you'll have to refresh my memory, what was the story behind that (I probably wasn't alive or close to being born yet!). :mrgreen:
 

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Jenin refugee camp before 3 April 2002

44. On the eve of Israel's military incursion in April, the Jenin refugee camp, established in 1953, was home to roughly 14,000 Palestinians, of whom approximately 47 per cent were either under 15 or over 65 years of age. It was the second largest refugee camp in the West Bank in population and was densely populated, occupying a surface area of approximately 373 dunums (one square kilometre). The Jenin refugee camp came under full Palestinian civil and security control in 1995. It is in close proximity to Israeli settlements and is near the "green line".

45. According to both Palestinian and Israeli observers, the Jenin camp had, by April 2002, some 200 armed men from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Tanzim, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas who operated from the camp. The Government of Israel has charged that, from October 2000 to April 2002, 28 suicide attacks were planned and launched from the Jenin camp.

46. The Government of Israel has published information regarding infrastructure within the Jenin camp for the carrying out of attacks. The Israeli Defence Forces point to their discovery in the camp of arms caches and explosive laboratories and the numbers of Palestinian militants killed or arrested there during Operation Defensive Shield. They cite posters glorifying suicide bombers and documents describing Jenin as a "martyr's capital" reportedly found by Israeli soldiers in the camp during the incursion.

47. The Government of Israel and IDF have acknowledged that their soldiers were unprepared for the level of resistance they encountered in Jenin camp, noting that it was "probably the most bitter and harsh" that they had faced. The IDF soldiers who took part in the operation were, for the most part, reservists who had been mobilized only on or after 17 March. Many were called up only after the Passover bombing in Netanya (27 March).

Israeli Defence Force incursion into Jenin city and refugee camp, 3-18 April 2002

48. Although available first-hand accounts are partial, difficult to authenticate and often anonymous, it is possible, through Government of Israel, Palestinian Authority, United Nations and other international sources, to create a rough chronology of events within the Jenin camp from 3 to 18 April 2002. The fighting lasted approximately 10 days and was characterized by two distinct phases: the first phase began on 3 April and ended on 9 April, while the second phase lasted during 10 and 11 April. Most of the deaths on both sides occurred in the first phase but it would appear that much of the physical damage was done in the second.

49. There are allegations by the Palestinian Authority and human rights organizations that in the conduct of their operations in the refugee camp the Israeli Defence Forces engaged in unlawful killings, the use of human shields, disproportionate use of force, arbitrary arrests and torture and denial of medical treatment and access. IDF soldiers who participated in the Jenin incursion point to breaches of international humanitarian law on the part of Palestinian combatants within the camp, including basing themselves in a densely populated civilian area and the use of children to transport and possibly lay booby traps.

50. In the account of the Government of Israel of the operation, IDF first surrounded and established control of access into and out of the city of Jenin, allowing its inhabitants to depart voluntarily. Approximately 11,000 did so. According to Israeli sources, in their incursion into the camp IDF relied primarily on infantry rather than airpower and artillery in an effort to minimize civilian casualties, but other accounts of the battle suggest that as many as 60 tanks may have been used even in the first days. Interviews with witnesses conducted by human rights organizations suggest that tanks, helicopters and ground troops using small arms predominated in the first two days, after which armoured bulldozers were used to demolish houses and other structures so as to widen alleys in the camp.

51. Using loudspeakers, IDF urged civilians in Arabic to evacuate the camp. Some reports, including of interviews with IDF soldiers, suggest that those warnings were not adequate and were ignored by many residents. Many of the inhabitants of the Jenin camp fled the camp before or at the beginning of the IDF incursion. Others left after 9 April. Estimates vary on how many civilians remained in the camp throughout but there may have been as many as 4,000.

52. As described by the Government of Israel, "a heavy battle took place in Jenin, during which IDF soldiers were forced to fight among booby-trapped houses and bomb fields throughout the camp, which were prepared in advance as a booby-trapped battlefield". The Palestinian Authority acknowledges that "a number of Palestinian fighters resisted the Israeli military assault and were armed only with rifles and ? crude explosives". An IDF spokesman offered a slightly different portrayal of the resistance, stating that the soldiers had faced "more than a thousand explosive charges, live explosive charges and some more sophisticated ones, ? hundreds of hand grenades ? [and] hundreds of gunmen". Human rights reports support the assertions that some buildings had been booby-trapped by the Palestinian combatants.

53. That the Israeli Defence Forces encountered heavy Palestinian resistance is not in question. Nor is the fact that Palestinian militants in the camp, as elsewhere, adopted methods which constitute breaches of international law that have been and continue to be condemned by the United Nations. Clarity and certainty remain elusive, however, on the policy and facts of the IDF response to that resistance. The Government of Israel maintains that IDF "clearly took all possible measures not to hurt civilian life" but were confronted with "armed terrorists who purposely concealed themselves among the civilian population". However, some human rights groups and Palestinian eyewitnesses assert that IDF soldiers did not take all possible measures to avoid hurting civilians, and even used some as human shields.

54. As IDF penetrated the camp, the Palestinian militants reportedly moved further into its centre. The heaviest fighting reportedly occurred between 5 and 9 April, resulting in the largest death tolls on both sides. There are reports that during this period IDF increased missile strikes from helicopters and the use of bulldozers - including their use to demolish homes and allegedly bury beneath them those who refused to surrender - and engaged in "indiscriminate" firing. IDF lost 14 soldiers, 13 in a single engagement on 9 April. IDF incurred no further fatalities in Jenin after 9 April.

55. Press reports from the days in question and subsequent interviews by representatives of non-governmental organizations with camp residents suggest that an average of five Palestinians per day died in the first three days of the incursion and that there was a sharp increase in deaths on 6 April.

56. Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also place the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged.

57. It is impossible to determine with precision how many civilians were among the Palestinian dead. The Government of Israel estimated during the incursion that there were "only dozens killed in Jenin ? and the vast majority of them bore arms and fired upon [IDF] forces". Israeli officials informed United Nations personnel that they believed that, of the 52 dead, 38 were armed men and 14 were civilians. The Palestinian Authority has acknowledged that combatants were among the dead, and has named some of them, but has placed no precise estimates on the breakdown. Human rights organizations put the civilian toll closer to 20 - Human Rights Watch documented 22 civilians among the 52 dead, while Physicians for Human Rights noted that "children under the age of 15 years, women and men over the age of 50 years accounted for nearly 38 per cent of all reported fatalities".

58. The Israeli Defence Forces stated at the time that their methods might not change, "because the basic assumption is that we are operating in a civilian neighbourhood". Other accounts of the battle suggest that the nature of the military operation in Jenin refugee camp did alter after 9 April 2002. On that day, in what both the Palestinian Authority and the Government of Israel describe as a "well-planned ambush" 13 IDF soldiers were killed and a number of others wounded. A fourteenth soldier died elsewhere in the camp that day, bringing the IDF death toll during the operation in Jenin to 23.

59. Following the ambush, IDF appeared to have shifted tactics from house-to-house searches and destruction of the homes of known militants to wider bombardment with tanks and missiles. IDF also used armoured bulldozers, supported by tanks, to demolish portions of the camp. The Government of Israel maintains that "IDF forces only destroyed structures after calling a number of times for inhabitants to leave buildings, and from which the shooting did not cease". Witness testimonies and human rights investigations allege that the destruction was both disproportionate and indiscriminate, some houses coming under attack from the bulldozers before their inhabitants had the opportunity to evacuate. The Palestinian Authority maintains that IDF "had complete and detailed knowledge of what was happening in the camp through the use of drones and cameras attached to balloons ? [and] none of the atrocities committed were unintentional".

60. Human rights and humanitarian organizations have questioned whether this change in tactics was proportionate to the military objective and in accordance with humanitarian and human rights law. The Palestinian Authority account of the battle alleges the use of "helicopter gunships to fire TOW missiles against such a densely populated area ? anti-aircraft guns, able to fire 3,000 rounds a minute ? scores of tanks and armoured vehicles equipped with machine guns ? [and] bulldozers to raze homes and to burrow wide lanes". Other sources point to an extensive use of armoured bulldozers and helicopter gunships on 9 and 10 April, possibly even after the fighting had begun to subside. During this stage, much of the physical damage was done, particularly in the central Hawashin district of the camp, which was effectively levelled. Many civilian dwellings were completely destroyed and many more were severely damaged. Several UNRWA facilities in the camp, including its health centre and sanitation office, were badly damaged.

61. Within two days after 9 April, IDF brought the camp under control and defeated the remaining armed elements. On 11 April, the last Palestinian militants in Jenin camp surrendered to IDF, having requested mediation by B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization that operates in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, to ensure that no harm would come to them. According to Palestinian Authority sources, those surrendering included wanted Islamic Jihad and Fatah leaders; others were three injured people and a 13-year-old boy.

Conclusion and aftermath of the IDF incursion, 11 April-7 May 2002

62. As the IDF incursion into Jenin wound down, a range of humanitarian problems arose or worsened for the estimated 4,000 Palestinian civilians remaining in the camp. Primary among these was the prolonged delay in obtaining medical attention for the wounded and sick within the camp. As the fighting began to subside, ambulances and medical personnel were prevented by IDF from reaching the wounded within the camp, despite repeated requests to IDF to facilitate access for ambulances and humanitarian delegates, including those of the United Nations. From 11 to 15 April, United Nations and other humanitarian agencies petitioned and negotiated for access to the camp with IDF and made many attempts to send in convoys, to no avail. At IDF headquarters on 12 April, United Nations officials were told that United Nations humanitarian staff would be given access to the affected population. However, such access did not materialize on the ground, and several more days of negotiations with senior IDF officials and personnel of the Israeli Ministry of Defence did not produce the necessary access despite assurances to the contrary. On 18 April, senior United Nations officials criticized Israel for its handling of humanitarian access in the aftermath of the battle and, in particular, its refusal to facilitate full and safe access to the affected populations in violation of its obligations under international humanitarian law.

63. UNRWA mounted a large operation to deliver food and medical supplies to needy refugees who had fled the camp and to Jenin hospital but was not allowed to enter the camp. The humanitarian crisis was exacerbated by the fact that, on the first day of the offensive, electricity in both the city and the camp were cut by IDF. Electric power was not restored until 21 April.

64. Many of the reports of human rights groups contain accounts of wounded civilians waiting days to reach medical assistance, and being refused medical treatment by IDF soldiers. In some cases, people died as a result of these delays. In addition to those wounded in the fighting, there were civilian inhabitants of the camp and the city who endured medication shortages and delays in medical treatment for pre-existing conditions. For example, it was reported on 4 April that there were 28 kidney patients in Jenin who could not reach the hospital for dialysis treatment.

65. The functioning of Jenin Hospital, just outside the camp, appears to have been severely undermined by IDF actions, despite IDF statements that "nothing was done to the hospital". The hospital's supplies of power, water, oxygen and blood were badly affected by the fighting and consequent cuts in services. On 4 April, IDF ordered the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) to stop its operations and sealed off the hospital. Hospital staff contend that shells and gunfire severely damaged equipment on the top floor and that at least two patients died because of damage to the oxygen supplies. None of the Palestinians within the hospital was permitted to leave until 15 April.

66. It appears that, in addition to the denial of aid, IDF in some instances targeted medical personnel. Before the Jenin incursion, on 4 March, the head of the PRCS Emergency Medical Service in Jenin was killed by a shell fired from an Israeli tank while he was travelling in a clearly marked ambulance. On 7 March, a staff member of UNRWA was killed when several bullets were fired by Israeli soldiers at an UNRWA ambulance in which he was riding near Tulkarm in the West Bank. On 3 April, a uniformed Palestinian nurse was reportedly shot by IDF soldiers within Jenin camp and on 8 April an UNRWA ambulance was fired upon as it tried to reach a wounded man in Jenin.

67. The Government of Israel repeatedly charged that medical vehicles were used to transport terrorists and that medical premises were used to provide shelter. This, according to Israel, necessitated the strict restrictions on humanitarian access. Furthermore, in the specific case of Jenin camp, IDF spokesmen attributed denials of access to the clearance of booby traps after the fighting had subsided. The IDF spokesman also maintained that the "Palestinians actually refused our offers to assist them with humanitarian aid" and that "everyone who needed help, got help". There is a consensus among humanitarian personnel who were present on the ground that the delays endangered the lives of many wounded and ill within. United Nations and other humanitarian personnel offered to comply fully with IDF security checks on entering and leaving the camp, but were not able to enter the camp on this basis. Furthermore, United Nations staff reported that IDF had granted some Israeli journalists escorted access to the camp on 14 April, before humanitarian personnel were allowed in. United Nations personnel requested similar escorted access to assess the humanitarian condition of people in the camp, but were unsuccessful, despite assurances from senior IDF officials that such access would be possible.

68. On 15 April, 12 days after the start of the military operation, IDF granted humanitarian agencies access to the Jenin refugee camp. The Palestine Red Crescent Society and the International Committee of the Red Cross were permitted to enter the camp under military escort but reported that their movement was strictly confined to certain areas and further constrained by the presence of large quantities of unexploded ordnance including booby traps. After evacuating only seven bodies, they aborted their efforts. A United Nations team including two trucks with water and supplies was forbidden from unloading its supplies and was also forced to withdraw. Supplies were distributed to the camp inhabitants only beginning the following day, 16 April. Acute food and water shortages were evident and humanitarian personnel began calls for specialized search-and-rescue efforts to extract the wounded and the dead from the rubble.

69. Once IDF granted full access to the camp on 15 April, unexploded ordnance impeded the safe operations of humanitarian personnel. Non-United Nations humanitarian agencies reported that large amounts of unexploded ordnance, explosives laid by Palestinian combatants as well as IDF ordnance, slowed their work. Negotiations carried out by United Nations and international agencies with IDF to allow appropriate equipment and personnel into the camp to remove the unexploded ordnance continued for several weeks, during which time at least two Palestinians were accidentally killed in explosions.
 

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And it stopped a LOT of suicide bombings from happening too!! Just like the wall they built!

Damn it's true........ "Peace through superior firepower"

:mrgreen: :wink:
 

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hank_612 said:
At the end of the year (2005) Israel was promising to bomb Iranian :evil: weapons facilities in late march if they (the Iranians) didn't halt their nuke programs. The plans and the preperations have been made. It is now March and I am curious what all effects that everyone thinks this would have on average Joe Americans. Oil prices? Problems with our Allies? WW3? Ammo shortage in US? (J/K) US involvement? Just some thoughts I had. What do you guys think?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_ ... 970000.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 562716.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183349,00.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/ ... d=washfile
I am very interested in learning more about Israel's promise to use force later this month but I don't see it spelled out like a deadline in the links your provided, are there any more?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
try using yahoo's news search. Sharon made the statement at least once in like dec. I would do it but I am a little busy. More to follow.

Newsweek had a huge write up on the whole situation not long ago. I will try to find it.
 

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If Netanyahu gets in, something serious is going to happen.

That guy has a definite take-no-shit attitude.

Now, when Israel hit the French built Iraqi nuke facility in '81, Iran was watching and learning.

You don't put all your eggs in one basket that an Israeli F16 can hit.

I heard rumors that when Tel Aviv was being hit with Scuds in GWI, the F16's were in the air with serious ordnance (nukes?) to hit Bagdahd, but that Bush I let them know that if they did that, we could not help them with what would happen afterwards and the Israelis stood down.


Now, I sincerly hope that Iran "sees the light" and gives up their program.

We know that that won't happen though.

So.

I guess the question is, will Israel actually do something about it, or would we let them do anything about it?

I can't see Egypt, Jordan, and Syria jumping to the "aid" of Iran if Israel does hit Iran, but who knows what kind stuff is going to get kicked up if Israel DOES hit Iran?

Bad scene all around.
 

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Dieter, I'm guessing you don't remember watching CNN when the Scuds were hitting Tel Aviv and the chemical/bio weapon sensors went off and people were running around in gas masks and injecting themselves with anti-nerve gas agents.

It was a very real feeling that Iraq had hit Israel with chemical and bio weapons, in which case, they should have hit Iraq with nukes.

Hussein had been threatening them with bio and chemical weapons for years.
 

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I remember watching it live while I was stationed in Germany. I thought for sure Israel would unleash on Iraq, had it not been for the US holding them back.

Scuds hitting Israel


Iran is pursuing nukes...Iran has threatened Israel and said they should be "wiped from the face of the earth."

I don't think anyone will stop them this time. One thing I've learned over the years....you don't fuck with the Israelis.
 
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