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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I posted this on the Trust thread but figured I would splat it here also.

I just set up a NFA Trust using this outfit: Do It Yourself Documents&#174 - NFA Firearm's Trust (Gun Trust)

NFA Firearm's Trust (Gun Trust), By Paralegal Amy Wishart &
Attorney Thomas A. Prediletto, Do It Yourself Documents - Indiana $29.95

It only cost $26.00 (they have 10% off sale)...it looks pretty good and has the requisite NFA and GCA act terminology.

I have read over several of the cookie cutter trust floating around the web and this one is very inclusive and covers the NFA stuff pretty well IMHO.

DISCLAIMER:I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice so do your own due diligence. I have no affiliation or interest in this company!

SAMPLE TEXT :

4.E. Firearms. Notwithstanding any other provision of this trust (or any other document incorporated by reference by this trust), any firearms owned by the trust which are subject to any state or federal law, statute or regulation shall be held and transferred in the manner hereinafter stated:

(1) Ownership. Before the trust shall maintain ownership of any firearm, the Trustee shall comply with all state and federal requirements for the registration of such firearm; including, registration of all Title II Firearms with BATFE. Further, the Trustee is expressly prohibited from altering a firearm in such a manner that it would then be a prohibited firearm or from obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.

(2) Use and Possession. The custody, control, use and possession of any firearm owned by the trust shall remain exclusively with a current Trustee of the trust.

(3) Transfers. Before the transfer of any firearm from the trust to any person or other entity, the Trustee shall comply with all state and federal requirements for the transfer of such firearm; including, the payment of all applicable transfer taxes.

(4) Prohibited Transfers. Before the transfer of any firearm to anyone other than a licensed dealer, the Trustee shall use due diligence to determine that the transferee is not a prohibited person.

4.F. General Powers. To have all rights and powers and do any and all acts necessary, proper or desirable for the benefit of the trust fund and its beneficiaries, which may be authorized and enabled by NFA and by the laws, statutes or regulations of the State of Indiana and the laws, statutes or regulations of any other state and/or local jurisdiction which regulates the ownership and/or transfer of any firearm owned by the trust within that state and/or jurisdiction
.


I did make few changes to it. I added a severability clause and minor change on titling terminology for the trust (They had default endorsement U/A = Under Agreement which is correct if Grantor and Trustee are different people however if Grantor and Trustee are the same person it should be U/D/T = Under Declaration of Trust, per US dept. of treasury publication).

If you have questions about it you want answered prior to buying it, you know if a item or subject is addressed in the trust I would be more then happy to answer them.

It comes with templates for Bank Instruction letter, Amendments to Trust, Co-Trustee appointments, Co-Trustee resignation and certificate of trust.It also has initial Funding Schedule A, Bill of Sale and Revised Schedule A to add/remove trust items. It also had a fairly decent instruction sheet on filling it out.

I will be sending mine off for a SBR build this week, I foresee no problems with the Trust.
 

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As an Attorney, I can attest that fill in the blank legal forms give people just enough to be dangerous with themselves. Go speak to an attorney in your state and get it done correctly. If one has the money to be into this hobby, then they should have the money to hire an attorney.
 

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As an Attorney, I can attest that fill in the blank legal forms give people just enough to be dangerous with themselves. Go speak to an attorney in your state and get it done correctly. If one has the money to be into this hobby, then they should have the money to hire an attorney.
I wold like to see some proof DIY vs attorney. That it actually works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
From the webpage linked to:

By Paralegal Amy Wishart & Attorney Thomas A. Prediletto


If I had 25k machineguns in my Trust and or was using it for large scale estate planning maybe, (just so I'd have somebody to sue if it was messed up) but for a few $1500.00 AR15 SBR"s that can be removed from the NFA registry with removing of the short barrel and a note to the ATF it's not that big of a issue.

That being said my son who has worked as a Para-legal in another state for the last 6 yrs. had it unofficially "reviewed" and no issues or problems were outstanding. Of course it could not officially be signed off on "outside work" is verboten.

The reality is most lawyers for Trusts and Wills, Bankruptcy (and many other legal filings) use "fill in the blank" form software and the majority work is usually done by their Para-legal.


To each their own
 

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my lawyer looked my trust over and said it looked good to him.

I've never had an issue with my trust, but then again it is my trust not an NFA trust. those are the ones that will have issues later on (if it ever comes down to it) my trust is set up for when I die and my possessions can be passed out to my kids. no court, no probate, no problems. my trust even spells out what happens if I become incapacitated (my siblings have to come to a mutual agreement) also who gets what at what age and who controls their stuff till they get to that age. all of my firearms are on my trust along with just about everything else I own. it is a legal binding document.
these idiots who say "I'm gonna put a can of pop in it... duh..... those are the ones that will have issues later on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Well a trust is a trust and the legal validity of it is determined by the State courts should it ever be contested...there is in truth no such legal animal as a Federal NFA Gun Trust. What we call NFA trusts are just regular old trusts with some language in them spelling out the handling of the NFA items should they be sold, transferred etc. Language like I pasted into the original post. The nice thing about a trust is it is easily changeable without a hassle. Something changes and in a few minutes you can easily and quickly modify the trust to address the issue.
 

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If anyone in Virginia is looking to have a trust done, PM me. My attorney specializes in firearms law, and will do trusts (Virgina only, sorry) for $100.
 

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If the attorneys who write that fill-in-the-blank trust aren't licensed/experienced in your state, you're running an ASTRONOMICAL risk of thousands of dollars in fines and DECADES in prison. All because you don't want to spend a few extra bucks to make sure it's done properly.

I have a trust. I had an attorney prepare it. Guess what? It cost less than half the price of the four tax stamps I paid for shortly afterward.

If you can afford a tax stamp, let alone the gun/NFA item in question, you can afford to have a local, experienced (with NFA trusts) attorney draw one up for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If the attorneys who write that fill-in-the-blank trust aren't licensed/experienced in your state, you're running an ASTRONOMICAL risk of thousands of dollars in fines and DECADES in prison. All because you don't want to spend a few extra bucks to make sure it's done properly.

I have a trust. I had an attorney prepare it. Guess what? It cost less than half the price of the four tax stamps I paid for shortly afterward.

If you can afford a tax stamp, let alone the gun/NFA item in question, you can afford to have a local, experienced (with NFA trusts) attorney draw one up for you.

Example please of somebody who has experienced the above due to a Trust ruled invalid by the State of residence, (BATF purview is not ruling on legality of trusts that is a function of State courts)....now if you have a trust and mishandle NFA items within that trust you will pay the penalty just as a Non-trust owner will...there are some examples of that.
 

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Do you understand the difference between telling people they run an astronomical risk of time in prison, and claiming someone actually has done so?

Hint: I already know you don't, because you just used a strawman argument and demanded I cite such an occurrence.

Most likely case ATF returns denied and says fix the trust.

If they're feeling froggy, the law allows them to make quite an example of someone. The low likelihood of that happening isn't a very good reason to think it can't.

Please don't put words in my mouth or insinuate I've said something I clearly haven't. It reflects poorly upon your credibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Do you understand the difference between telling people they run an astronomical risk of time in prison, and claiming someone actually has done so?

Hint: I already know you don't, because you just used a strawman argument and demanded I cite such an occurrence.

Most likely case ATF returns denied and says fix the trust.

If they're feeling froggy, the law allows them to make quite an example of someone. The low likelihood of that happening isn't a very good reason to think it can't.

Please don't put words in my mouth or insinuate I've said something I clearly haven't. It reflects poorly upon your credibility.

With the huge number of people using NFA trusts (made without the assistance of a attorney) if one cannot cite a single case of the trust being invalidated and a person experiencing said fines and jail times exactly how astronomical can the risk be ??

And no it is not a "straw man argument" I have not presented a false "y" position to counter your "X" argument by claiming a false equivalency.

I have asked you to support your assertion of an astronomical risk of a given event happening and you cannot do so.

You are making a statement using "Misleading vividness" This is a term that can be applied to anecdotal evidence describing an occurrence, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, with sufficient detail to permit hasty generalizations about the occurrence (e.g., to convince someone that the occurrence is a widespread problem).

Then you followed up by a Ad hominem attack implying I am trying to "add words to your mouth" and then using your false accusation to attempt to call into question my credibility when it is you who has made all the unfounded assertions.

A proper statement (with the evidence you have presented...none) would have been: A person runs a very slight to virtually non-existent risk of experiencing problems with their trust, but if they do so they "may" be fined or imprisoned, however without mitigating circumstances they will probably just be asked by the BATF to fix the trust.
 

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There are plenty of instances of individuals in many states, to include Florida, who had trusts rejected by ATF after using a "one size fits all" application like you're offering. If you'd like me to post a lmgtfy link for that, I'd be happy to do so, but I'll let you try it first. That there isn't an instance of someone being taken to court and put through the wringer YET doesn't mean that NFA laws can be ignored. Given the fragile state of the trust route these days and the new proposed ATF rules regarding them, one would HOPE that someone wouldn't try fleecing people for the sake of a few bucks when there's a damn good chance the trust may not be legal in their state....which will end up costing them more money in the long run. The fact is, there is no such thing as a one-trust-fits-all-states scenario. Period. That you are advertising your product as such*, which could be construed as providing legal advice in states in which you're not licensed to practice and have no experience with estate/trust law, is akin to the services offered by everyone's favorite attorney, Saul Goodman. BETTER CALL SAUL!!

*The ethics question notwithstanding (your site has been forwarded to the Indiana Bar to determine whether offering trusts and estate planning in states in which you're not licensed to practice is up to snuff on their ethics guidelines), the fact you're advertising commercial services without taking the necessary steps to comply with forum rules regarding commercial ventures from non-vendors, means this post needs to probably be reviewed by moderators as well to ensure forum rules are being adhered to.

The facts are simple: Unless you're planning on offering a written guarantee that your trust, as written, will work in EVERY STATE without needing any changes or edits, to offer it as such is far more misleading than anything I've posted. I've said and read everything I care to here. Anyone who proceeds with your services does so at their own risk, because I think we both know you don't care if it actually works, you just want the cash from people thinking it's cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There are plenty of instances of individuals in many states, to include Florida, who had trusts rejected by ATF after using a "one size fits all" application like you're offering. If you'd like me to post a lmgtfy link for that, I'd be happy to do so, but I'll let you try it first. That there isn't an instance of someone being taken to court and put through the wringer YET doesn't mean that NFA laws can be ignored. Given the fragile state of the trust route these days and the new proposed ATF rules regarding them, one would HOPE that someone wouldn't try fleecing people for the sake of a few bucks when there's a damn good chance the trust may not be legal in their state....which will end up costing them more money in the long run. The fact is, there is no such thing as a one-trust-fits-all-states scenario. Period. That you are advertising your product as such*, which could be construed as providing legal advice in states in which you're not licensed to practice and have no experience with estate/trust law, is akin to the services offered by everyone's favorite attorney, Saul Goodman. BETTER CALL SAUL!!

*The ethics question notwithstanding (your site has been forwarded to the Indiana Bar to determine whether offering trusts and estate planning in states in which you're not licensed to practice is up to snuff on their ethics guidelines), the fact you're advertising commercial services without taking the necessary steps to comply with forum rules regarding commercial ventures from non-vendors, means this post needs to probably be reviewed by moderators as well to ensure forum rules are being adhered to.

The facts are simple: Unless you're planning on offering a written guarantee that your trust, as written, will work in EVERY STATE without needing any changes or edits, to offer it as such is far more misleading than anything I've posted. I've said and read everything I care to here. Anyone who proceeds with your services does so at their own risk, because I think we both know you don't care if it actually works, you just want the cash from people thinking it's cheap.
Again with the Ad Hominem attacks......

You really do need to read closer....it is not my website and I have no financial interest in it or any of it's products. ( I really suggest that you in particular do not ever, ever, ever purchase a DIY anything as you are obviously lacking in basic reading comprehension skills)


As to the one size fits all ....the trust I bought was tailored for Indiana and while there is not a one size that fits all states there is something called the UTC or Universal Trust Code currently adopted by legislatures in 25 states (Indiana is one of those states) with 3 more pending. Even in states without formal adoption it is often used as a model.

So now that you cannot support evidence your original assertion of "astronomical risk" of a huge fines and jail time by using a "trust kit" you have resorted back to ad hominem attacks (assertions of some financial motivation for my posting) and to proffering a "red herring" argument. Rather then supporting your original statements you have attacked me and my motivations and the legality of the websites offerings and of a rules violation by my posting a link on the forum.

Now you may well be right or wrong in those assertions, if the websites offerings are not legal that is a separate issue and if I have violated a forum policy the moderators will take appropriate action but both issues have no bearing on your original position of "astronomical risk". In fact you have provided proof to the opposite referencing the fact then when presented with a obviously flawed trust the BATF has simply requested modification of the trust to be in compliance with UTC requirements.

Can a person screw up a self made trust or will...of course they can....heck some people cannot even read a forum post with any degree of comprehension.

As to "trying it myself" I have and I received my Form 1 (SBR) in 90 days by applying using the BATF eforms page with no requests for additions or modifications to my trust.

As stated it may not be for everyone and not fit every one's situation....to each their own.

I also do my own taxes, some people prefer to pay somebody else...I will also as you put it accept the "astronomical risk" of loss of refund, fines and "decades" in prison for filing a faulty tax return.
 

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Interesting banter in this thread. Ready for a couple folks to go on "Judge Judy" and hash this out.:)
The Trust format sounds like a good solution for a fairly easy to understand and affordable access to a well prepared document. But each to their own level of concern.
 
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