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On another AK forum I posted that it would be nice to see a test where mannequins or torso silhouettes were put in spread-out groupings at various 100-300 meter ranges and all dressed in civilian clothing with one or two at any particular distance designated the "bad guy", (holding a rifle or pistol, or wearing a suicide vest, etc.) and then engagement times recorded using red dots vs. magnified optics such as an ACOG.

Rob Ski from AK-47/74 Operators Union replied with:
US Army did this already when they were testing ACOGS before those could enter the service. They had guys from AMU unit running it in CQBs and then at extended distances - all in competition to M68 (Aimpoints). It was really interesting test, guys were wired with sensors and etc - real stuff. They found out that reaction times differences from ACOGs vs M68s in CQBs were acceptable, but ACOGs really kicked M68s ass in extended range shooting at unknown distance targets and etc. So, here you have it, 4x scope will rule irons or red dot all day long in extended range shooting. Especially if targets aren't really easy to identify (they blend in either with vegetation or other backgrounds).
 
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If benched and you have a spotter, anything is possible. I love my RDS for up close but past two hundred, breathing hard from crap supported positions, the lower power stuff really shines IME.
 

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On another AK forum I posted that it would be nice to see a test where mannequins or torso silhouettes were put in spread-out groupings at various 100-300 meter ranges and all dressed in civilian clothing with one or two at any particular distance designated the "bad guy", (holding a rifle or pistol, or wearing a suicide vest, etc.) and then engagement times recorded using red dots vs. magnified optics such as an ACOG.

Rob Ski from AK-47/74 Operators Union replied with:
that makes sense Belloc. In my range i have targets set up at 200 and 400 meters (max for now, winter, 600 cant be done), both steel and man size silhouettes, During summer i purposely have the hay guy NOT to cut the grass around the target, but leave some of the tall weeds standing. This makes it a bit more challenging/realistic for me and my friends. Using open sights past 300 meters is really tough as the vegetation begins to blurr out the target. Even-though the human full size silhouette is nearly 20 inches wide, its not easy to hit it with open sights. Once you apply 2.8x 1P78 it becomes real easy.

In the video above you have a nice GIANT Glowing Orange target, which is really to delineate from the background. Now if the test was redone with a similar colour target as the background, it would be much more difficult to hit.

couple years ago i did a test (its buried in the archives) where i shot my RPK-74 prone, open sights at a IDPA style silhouette (just a tan-ish silhouette, not easy to identify, thin line borders) compared to a traditional black/green/red silhouette at the distance of 400 meters. Out of 10 shots only 6 made in on paper compared to shooting an easily identifiable silhouette. Once i slapped on my 1P78 the miss ratio went down to 0.
 

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that makes sense Belloc. In my range i have targets set up at 200 and 400 meters (max for now, winter, 600 cant be done), both steel and man size silhouettes, During summer i purposely have the hay guy NOT to cut the grass around the target, but leave some of the tall weeds standing. This makes it a bit more challenging/realistic for me and my friends. Using open sights past 300 meters is really tough as the vegetation begins to blurr out the target. Even-though the human full size silhouette is nearly 20 inches wide, its not easy to hit it with open sights. Once you apply 2.8x 1P78 it becomes real easy.

In the video above you have a nice GIANT Glowing Orange target, which is really to delineate from the background. Now if the test was redone with a similar colour target as the background, it would be much more difficult to hit.

couple years ago i did a test (its buried in the archives) where i shot my RPK-74 prone, open sights at a IDPA style silhouette (just a tan-ish silhouette, not easy to identify, thin line borders) compared to a traditional black/green/red silhouette at the distance of 400 meters. Out of 10 shots only 6 made in on paper compared to shooting an easily identifiable silhouette. Once i slapped on my 1P78 the miss ratio went down to 0.
Not only a nice giant glowing orange target, but also right in the middle of a nice bright sunny day no less.
Dang climate change! And thanks for reporting your own first-hand results. As you said, makes sense.


 

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The myth of the red dot can mean a lot of things. I need to buy a shot clock. At 0-50 yards I don't think that I'm any faster with a red dot than I am with three dot tritium Meprolight sights. At 100, red dot is faster because my eyes got old.
 

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Can we please back up and introduce some useful and accurate numbers? A 1 MOA dot covers:

1" @ 100yds
2" @ 200yds
3" @ 300yds
.
.
.
10" @ 1000yds
And so on.

If a small VW is 10 feet long, a 1 MOA dot would cover it at 12000 yards, over 7miles.

Get the idea? Feel free to do the math, just the simplest of geometry.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
On another AK forum I posted that it would be nice to see a test where mannequins or torso silhouettes were put in spread-out groupings at various 100-300 meter ranges and all dressed in civilian clothing with one or two at any particular distance designated the "bad guy", (holding a rifle or pistol, or wearing a suicide vest, etc.) and then engagement times recorded using red dots vs. magnified optics such as an ACOG.

Rob Ski from AK-47/74 Operators Union replied with:

MANNEQUINS, NO, NO politicians and banksters, live ones please!! makes far more fun...
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Can we please back up and introduce some useful and accurate numbers? A 1 MOA dot covers:

1" @ 100yds
2" @ 200yds
3" @ 300yds
.
.
.
10" @ 1000yds
And so on.

If a small VW is 10 feet long, a 1 MOA dot would cover it at 12000 yards, over 7miles.

Get the idea? Feel free to do the math, just the simplest of geometry.
Well that sure has messed up the VW contingent, and why not a Ford to. I think 12000 yards is way, way too much for even that big bad ass Barrett 50 Cal sniper, let alone the humble AK. The AK is meant to be a short ish to medium range nasty boy, 5 to 500 yards, in my book anyway. it does that exceptionally well. both eyes open targeting system type red dots, for me are a great aid especially for old gits like me whoés eyes are going west. That 80 to 250 350 yard gives us back that edge, well a bit anyway. But no red dots going a stay with a good scope at those 1000 + to 2500 yard take downs. isn't there a place for them all at the table of shooting ? ;);)
 

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Not that it is rocket science but here is a video on the difference in a few MOA red dot sizes at 100 yards on a silhouette.

 

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Can we please back up and introduce some useful and accurate numbers? A 1 MOA dot covers:

1" @ 100yds
2" @ 200yds
3" @ 300yds
.
.
.
10" @ 1000yds
And so on.

If a small VW is 10 feet long, a 1 MOA dot would cover it at 12000 yards, over 7miles.

Get the idea? Feel free to do the math, just the simplest of geometry.
For an AK in 7.62x39, there may not be much point in using a red dot for any ranged shooting because the bullet drop will be outside of the dot pretty quickly.

Range (yards) Drop (inches) Velocity Energy Time (seconds)
0 -1.4917 2349 1507 0.00
100 0.0106 2008 1101 0.14
200 -7.1998 1699 788 0.30
300 -26.5812 1430 558 0.49
400 -63.1059 1214 402 0.72
500 -123.2630 1066 310 0.99

They may be better suited for 5.45x39 and 5.56x45, because of the flatter trajectory of those cartridges. An illuminated low-power scope with a BDC reticle seems like a better choice if you want to shoot beyond 200m.
 

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From what I know, the advantage of the red dot is in speed of engagement of close-in targets. With practice, you can get as good with iron sights, but it takes more practice and finesse to get the same chance of hitting a target inside 150-ish yards.
 

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Personally I like a low fix power scope. Just as fast as a red dot but can be used for accuracy at distances with out covering up my target.
 

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In terms of simple accuracy (setting speed of target acquisition aside) red dots are most useful (over iron sights) to me when the target is a darker color that makes it hard to define the front sight post. Dot provides a much higher level of confidence. With a nice contrast between sights and target, and an unhurried rate of fire, I don't think my groups are any tighter with the red dot over factory sights.
 

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Being in my early 50's now, I have come to appreciate the red dot quite a bit. I'm my late teens, 20's and 30's in the Marine Corps, irons were the standard and we made fun others who wanted optics on their M-16s and other rifles. Now my older eyes don't pick up my irons like they used to, especially at ranges past 200-300 yards. Love the Aimpoints, and huge fan of Vortex, both red dots and regular optics. Aimpoint PRO on my duty rifle. I do agree though, magnified scopes for longer ranges, red dots closer in.
 
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I firmly believe if you have crappy shooting skills, red dots will bring that to light quickly and sometimes make matters worse.
 
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Discussion Starter #38
Well update here, from last post, now 63 years young, Eyeballs are not what they used to be here; 2MOA red dot sighted in, and I am now getting 100% hits on a 12 inch steel target at 220 yards, but I think I could do a little better, on a lucky day.
 
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