[BlackScot]

Just trashed a run at my local rifle match last Sunday using my AR. Although I had earlier been using the Wolf 5.56 no problem during several practice sessions, those were always 50-60 degree days with the gun straight from the warm truck to the firing line. At the match it was low 40's and very windy, which the gun sat out in for a good while before shooting. I was the first shooter up and was bright and chipper, but had several failures-to-fully-cycle, which ended up putting me way down in the ranks. At first I thought the Wolf was underpowered, and that the action being stiffer in the cold created the new problem. Today I looked around on the web though, and found that Wolf's 5.56 velocity is about the same as many of the other brands, so it's either (1) some other aspect of the cartridge, or else (2) the same thing could potentially happen any time with any ammo (which I'm beginning to suspect).

I was tired, cold, and dirty several hours later after serving as RO to run all the other shooters, when I finally got a chance as the last run of the day to shoot my AK47 (Arsenal Inc. SA M7S). It functioned flawlessly (of course), and despite the by-then significant fatigue I came in much higher up in the scores.

Lesson: It don't mean a dang if it don't go bang.

I love the 7.62x39 cartridge and have always thought of it as the "real AK round", but am troubled by all the availability problems. I've never been able to warm-up to the 5.45, which there appears to be an even harder time getting. Some AK's are now being made in 5.56, which the mil-spec ammo is also hard to find currently but there's a lot more alternatives, as well as prospects for it getting permanently back on the shelves eventually.

Would a 5.56 AK give me the reliability I need, but in a cartridge I can get? How does this cartridge perform on the AK platform? What other aspects do I need to consider? :roll:

Comments please -- thanks.

 

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[MauserMark]

Despite how much I love Wolf and their ammunition, I would of never used wolf .223 in an AR during a match. That just doesn't make much sense to me, I've used wolf in my ARs and they have caused problems, but few and far between, the brass cased rounds like Winchester never gave me problems and I'm sure if I had taken one of my ARs to a match I would of used brass cased ammo. :neutral:

that's just how these ARs seem to be made, with really tight tolerances.

-mark

 

[cruzie27]

i have a Arsenal SA-M5s (no-ban) in 5.56x45,...

i sold my pimped out ar to buy it,..and i couldent be happier with doing so. the AK is a bit heavier than the ar but that works to its advantage,.the recoil is less noitcably and follow up shots are quicker and on target faster because of this,...also what helps alot is the balance of the rifle with a milled reciver,...im sure you noticed the ar is a bit barrel heavy,...this is not the case with Arsenals milled rifle,...it just feels right when shouldered with a good sight picture. now with a milled reciver the action is going to be silky smooth and because the recoil spring is not in the butt stock next to your ear,.. you dont have to listen to the annoying spring "twang" in your ear when fireing.

and because it is a AK,.. it will not give a shit what kind of ammo you use or what the weather conditions are,..or how much/how well you clean it

mine came with a side rail for a scope,.. i plan on getting a cobra (commie red dot) for it,..look for one with a side rail if you can.

now as far as accuracy,... when put against a 16in. M-4 clone with the same twist rate(1/7),.. shooting the same ammo,.. there is no noticeably diffrence in accuracy. in this situation it is all in the hands of the shooter.

now everyone here knows i cant talk about my Arsenal and not post pictures of it,.. so heres the rifle i am so very fond of,...and the reason i most likely will not buy another ar

and a better one of the mags loaded with some SS-109

now there are some other options out there if you do not want to spend 650-800 on a AK in 5.56,...but by far,.. this is the best one out there.

hope it helped

 

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[ohsonofa]

does anyone know how many sam-5 ban and no-ban rifles were produced?

 

[Apache]

If your seriously considering a SA M-5, you'd better find one NOW. They are all but gone with no more to be made any time soon, if ever ... :wink:

 

[Templar]

Randy, man I'm sorry I wasn't out there this time but I felt like beaten sheet metal on Saturday.

Wow, so the AR choked? That's wierd, I'd still blame the ammo first though.

I really really really want a SA-M5. Sam Edwards has one that is his play gun for the matches, and he does very well with it.

 

[JaketheSnake]

Wolf is underpowered ammo, no if, ands, or buts go ahead and compare it to NATO spec Lake City ammo (standard SS109) you would be surprised. I recently got the chance to look at an AR which had a durakote job done on it the AR has never been cleaned. I know the man who shoots it, he far too lazy and ADD to sit down and complete such a task.

If I had to guess Your running a buffer and a spring that is too strong for your wolf ammo.

I still don't understand why guys cheap out on ammo? It's not an AK, it was never meant to run that dirty cheap stuff. The gun was meant for US GI spec .223. With the way wolf ammo costs now, I can still buy 2,000 rounds of Lake City SS109 circa 2000 and up for 250.

Putting shity ammo thru an AR then blaming it for failing and jamming is like showing up to a high powered rifle match with an AK then blaming it's 1000 MOA performance on the Barrel.

BTW you did clean the bore and chamber every 500 rounds with that wolf stuff right? If not your begging for a jam caused by Laquer. Only way around that problem is to use another ammo that doesn't have laquer.

 

[Q-gunner2]

I am not sure what to say.

Steel expands and contracts with changing temperature more than brass does. It might affect the piniky AR.

Brittish SS109 isn't cheap, but you can get 720 or 780 rounds on strippers in bandoliers for about $100 per can. It's alot of money, but cheaper than $250 for 1,000 (I can't imagine paying THAT much for anything, unless its .30-30 or super magnum ultra sniper grade FMJBTABCDEFG ammunition) :shock:.

PS when I was at the match, I shot a M-14 with Lake City ball ammo, and despite it being ball, on the rapid fire 100 yard session I got 5 shots in under a inch group (keep in mind, no scope no bipod), and 3 of them were in the same hole (all 5 in the 10 ring BTW). This is out of 20 rounds. My final score did suck, 630/800, but I blame myself. On the prone shoot my elbow messed up a few times too many and I had one miss and a few low 6s because of this.

Long story short, the AR is too finiky to trust Wolf in a serious matter and it really is the shooter that makes a difference. I could have said I was a sniper and the miss and low score was due to the ammo being ball, but that would be pure BS. Fact of the matter is that it was me. Any good shooter that wants to be a great shooter needs to learn that.

PS- Lake City .308 ball can consistantly keep all shots in the X ring out to 200 yards with a great shooter, despite the fact it isn't match, it is still good. Don't pay twice as much for match if you don't need it.

 

[WarDawg]

First sorry to hear of your match woes. I had an STG FAL lock up tighter than nun's butt on me dureing a Shoot and Move match. Imbarassing and blew what little momentum I had going into that stage.
I don't think Wolf 5.56 is loaded to the same pressure range that U.S. specs ammo at ( 3200 FPS ) . I personally haven't cronoed it. I have witnessed wolf stop many AR's. Use it for plinking ammo only and get brass ammo loaded to spec or there abouts. She'll hum all day long. Also the MYTH that an AR needs to be clean alot is just that . Urban Ledgend and a Myth. They don't . Just a squirt of CLP every now and then. It will run and function.

Now on to the 5.56 AK. That really seems to be your best bet and a very nice looking rifle . The Milled reciever and the 5.56 being and accurate round in the first place , will show up on paper. My Stamped AK's group like shit. But my milled ones hold good groups. With Wolf I might add. I persoannly believe it's the Milled reciever and being just more ridged. ... WarDawg

 

[cruzie27]

If your seriously considering a SA M-5, you'd better find one NOW. They are all but gone with no more to be made any time soon, if ever ... :wink:

well here is a good deal,.. it is the same guy i got mine from,...less than 700 bucks too

DIETER122,..you see this right? if you can have it in NY i suggest,.. you get some cash and tell the guy,...whats that urban phrase im looking for????,...oh yeah,.."let me get that out cha"

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44479359

or you can pay this guy :shock:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44482822


soooooooooo,.. how can i find out about attending and entering this kinda match in my area?

 

[ohsonofa]

$669 @[email protected] better hurry someones gonna snag that!

 

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[cruzie27]

dieter if i was you id find/make a long lost relative here in PA. until you can escape from NY

 

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[No1Here]

dieter if i was you id find/make a long lost relative here in PA. until you can escape from NY

haha yeahhhhhhhhh.....

I definitly have no relatives in PA, that im sure of. haha how would I MAKE a long lost relative lol :lol:

I just tell myself, "someday" :neutral:

It's not like your lacking in your collection, so thats a good thing. Hell, you have more AK's than me. :smile:

Back to the topic, Better grab the mags while they're here, they sell quick.

 

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[[email protected]]

My SAR-3 is VERY accurate. I've shot 2" at 100yrds with iron sights. Once you get your mag situation squared away, it's about as good as it gets for an affordable AK. :grin:

I'm not a big fan of milled AK's because of the weight. IMHO a combat rifle in this caliber should weigh no more than 6-7 pounds. If I'm going to carry a 9lb rifle it's going to be in .308.

 

[BlackScot]

Thanks for the excellent feedback guys.

Putting shity ammo thru an AR then blaming it for failing and jamming is like showing up to a high powered rifle match with an AK then blaming it's 1000 MOA performance on the Barrel.

BTW you did clean the bore and chamber every 500 rounds with that wolf stuff right? If not your begging for a jam caused by Laquer. Only way around that problem is to use another ammo that doesn't have laquer.

I realize there are probably significant differences between the Wolf and mil-spec. Web info directly from the various manufacturers, however, indicates they almost all have a 55 gr. bullet with a muzzel velocity of around 3240 ft/sec. The only real difference was XM193 at 3250 ft/sec, which is still not a huge difference.

Also, this was the teflon-coated Wolf not the lacquer, which I've never used. Although the gun was not prsitine clean, it only had about 300 rounds prior to the match, and it was freshly lubed immediately before shooting.

I'm not ready to dump the AR yet, and will likely try it further with solely brass-cased at matches. I'm still mystified at the Wolf being fine in practice but choking at the match, but that's the nature of competition.

Main thing though, I sure felt a lot more confident walking up to that second run with the AK, and knowing there would not be any such problems.