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new, old news?
he Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recently examined devices commonly known as “forced reset triggers” (FRTs) and has determined that some of them are “firearms” and “machineguns” as defined in the National Firearms Act (NFA), and “machineguns” as defined in the Gun Control Act (GCA).
These particular FRTs are being marketed as replacement triggers for AR-type firearms. Unlike traditional triggers and binary triggers (sometimes referred to generally as “FRTs”), the subject FRTs do not require shooters to pull and then subsequently release the trigger to fire a second shot. Instead, these FRTs utilize the firing cycle to eliminate the need for the shooter to release the trigger before a second shot is fired. By contrast, some after-market triggers have similar components but also incorporate a disconnector or similar feature to ensure that the trigger must be released before a second shot may be fired and may not be machineguns.
Both the NFA and GCA regulate machineguns. “Machinegun” is defined under 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) and 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(23) as—
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. (Emphasis added.)
ATF’s examination found that some FRT devices allow a firearm to automatically expel more than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger. For this reason, ATF has concluded that FRTs that function in this way are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and hence, ATF has classified these devices as a “machinegun” as defined by the NFA and GCA.
Accordingly, ATF’s position is that any FRT that allows a firearm to automatically expel more than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger is a “machinegun”, and is accordingly subject to the GCA prohibitions regarding the possession, transfer, and transport of machineguns under 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o) and 922(a)(4). They are also subject to registration, transfer, taxation, and possession restrictions under the NFA. See 26 U.S.C. §§ 5841, 5861; 27 CFR 479.101.
Under 26 U.S.C. § 5871, any person who violates or fails to comply with the provisions of the NFA may be fined up to $10,000 per violation and is subject to imprisonment for a term of up to ten years. Further, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5872, any machinegun possessed or transferred in violation of the NFA is subject to seizure and forfeiture. Under 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), any person who violates § 922(o) may be sent to prison for up to 10 years and fined up to $250,000 per person or $500,000 per organization.
Based on ATF’s determination that the FRTs that function as described above are “machineguns” under the NFA and GCA, ATF intends to take appropriate remedial action with respect to sellers and possessors of these devices. Current possessors of these devices are encouraged to contact ATF for further guidance on how they may divest possession. If you are uncertain whether the device you possess is a machinegun as defined by the GCA and NFA, please contact your local ATF Field Office. You may consult the local ATF Office’s webpage for office contact information.
Alphonso Hughes
Assistant Director
Enforcement Programs and Services
George Lauder
Assistant Director
Field Operations
 

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yawn

New. But you knew it was coming.
I give no shits. FRTs, as they call them, have shit to do with 2A and I care not if they come or go.
 
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yawn

New. But you knew it was coming.
I give no shits. FRTs, as they call them, have shit to do with 2A and I care not if they come or go.
How does a firearm component "have shit to do with 2A"? Nowhere does 2A qualify or disqualify what types of arms are a right. ALL arms are a right. Any attempt to qualify or disqualify what types of arms or mechanical implements are a right is a literal and direct infringement.
 

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How does a firearm component "have shit to do with 2A"? Nowhere does 2A qualify or disqualify what types are arms are a right. ALL arms are a right. Any attempt to qualify or disqualify what types of arms or mechanical implements are a right is a literal and direct infringement.
These things are no more a firearm than a screw driver. They aren't a component of any known firearm, they are an accessory that are not protected by 2A. That the ATF is giving them validation by attempting to regulate them is laughable but it is what it is. People finding ways to give .gov the finger while daring them to do something about it is wrecking the firearm ownership in the country one small piece at a time and .gov is all too happy to oblige. Keep poking that bear and they'll keep taking things a bit at a time until there's nothing left to take. Giving them excuses like these FRT's is us being our own worse enemy. Yes, all arms are a right. FRT's are NOT arms and the 2A doesn't mention "mechanical implements". But forcing the ATF to define something as silly as an FRT a firearm is cutting our own throats.
Look at bump stocks and pistol braces. Middle finger to .gov, banned. Neither are firearms but here we are.
 

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These things are no more a firearm than a screw driver. They aren't a component of any known firearm, they are an accessory that are not protected by 2A. That the ATF is giving them validation by attempting to regulate them is laughable but it is what it is. People finding ways to give .gov the finger while daring them to do something about it is wrecking the firearm ownership in the country one small piece at a time and .gov is all too happy to oblige. Keep poking that bear and they'll keep taking things a bit at a time until there's nothing left to take. Giving them excuses like these FRT's is us being our own worse enemy. Yes, all arms are a right. FRT's are NOT arms and the 2A doesn't mention "mechanical implements". But forcing the ATF to define something as silly as an FRT a firearm is cutting our own throats.
Look at bump stocks and pistol braces. Middle finger to .gov, banned. Neither are firearms but here we are.
No. Dividing the firearm community into haves and have nots is wrecking the firearm community. For the longest time, braces didn't exist, bump stocks didn't exist, and yet the govt. constantly infringes on our rights. We push and push and push and every time we gain ground somewhere, we lose it elsewhere. They're going to keep taking things away from us no matter what. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Nobody in power wants the common people to have implements to forcibly remove them from power. Right or left. I find it disturbing that you view infringements on infringements as 'bad'. Innovation is good and sometimes stumbles happen. Those devices complied with the rules at the time, but what good are rules if they can be changed arbitrarily at a moment's notice without oversight or votes?

I didn't see the part in the Constitution where we were only allowed to have the things the govt allows us to have. Something about.. shall not.. because there's a really slippery slope that only goes one way.

As you pointed out, triggers are part of the gun. They're required to make it function, even though legally the receiver is the firearm. If we're going to be that reductive, then springs should be banned in semi auto firearms because they make the gun go bang fast. Eh just ban all semi autos. But its ok.. for hunting we can allow people to have only the springs required to push the firing pin back in government approved bolt action rifles. Not too dangerous! 30-30 maximum power. Maybe the trigger too but you'll have to give up something else.. like 5 round capacity internal magazine. You can only shoot once if you're hunting and that should be all you need. But really who needs to hunt now adays? We have Google and grocery stores, Doordash and McDonald's. Okok.. keep the guns at the range, stored seperately from the ammo in biometric locks that automatically log access and send it to the ATF. Can't buy ammo at the stores or online if you're not at the club, why would you need to?

Some bright spark already floated the idea of taxing ammunition to the point where it would make firearms too expensive to operate casually. Would that be an infringement since its not an arm? OH so clever. Wait no.. a gun without ammo is an expensive club or spear if you have a bayonet.. but that's not sporting! You don't "NEED" a bayonet... sound familiar?

Look.. to each their own. It's fine not to like a thing, but this? this is the exact kind of division our enemies love.
 

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No. Dividing the firearm community into haves and have nots is wrecking the firearm community. For the longest time, braces didn't exist, bump stocks didn't exist, and yet the govt. constantly infringes on our rights. We push and push and push and every time we gain ground somewhere, we lose it elsewhere. They're going to keep taking things away from us no matter what. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Nobody in power wants the common people to have implements to forcibly remove them from power. Right or left. I find it disturbing that you view infringements on infringements as 'bad'. Innovation is good and sometimes stumbles happen. Those devices complied with the rules at the time, but what good are rules if they can be changed arbitrarily at a moment's notice without oversight or votes?

I didn't see the part in the Constitution where we were only allowed to have the things the govt allows us to have. Something about.. shall not.. because there's a really slippery slope that only goes one way.

As you pointed out, triggers are part of the gun. They're required to make it function, even though legally the receiver is the firearm. If we're going to be that reductive, then springs should be banned in semi auto firearms because they make the gun go bang fast. Eh just ban all semi autos. But its ok.. for hunting we can allow people to have only the springs required to push the firing pin back in government approved bolt action rifles. Not too dangerous! 30-30 maximum power. Maybe the trigger too but you'll have to give up something else.. like 5 round capacity internal magazine. You can only shoot once if you're hunting and that should be all you need. But really who needs to hunt now adays? We have Google and grocery stores, Doordash and McDonald's. Okok.. keep the guns at the range, stored seperately from the ammo in biometric locks that automatically log access and send it to the ATF. Can't buy ammo at the stores or online if you're not at the club, why would you need to?

Some bright spark already floated the idea of taxing ammunition to the point where it would make firearms too expensive to operate casually. Would that be an infringement since its not an arm? OH so clever. Wait no.. a gun without ammo is an expensive club or spear if you have a bayonet.. but that's not sporting! You don't "NEED" a bayonet... sound familiar?

Look.. to each their own. It's fine not to like a thing, but this? this is the exact kind of division our enemies love.
I recall the brace issue going to court and the ATF being ordered to unfuck themselves on it. They got sued by one of the manufacturers who got a judge to side with him on the foolishness of the ATF decree. I suspect that this will also go to court, and as they have imperiously decreed, they may get this shoved up their asses as well. They will then redefine it in such wording that they can pull it off. For me, any time we oppose or challenge the unconstitutional and illegitimate ATF, I am good on it.
 

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These things are no more a firearm than a screw driver. They aren't a component of any known firearm, they are an accessory that are not protected by 2A. That the ATF is giving them validation by attempting to regulate them is laughable but it is what it is. People finding ways to give .gov the finger while daring them to do something about it is wrecking the firearm ownership in the country one small piece at a time and .gov is all too happy to oblige. Keep poking that bear and they'll keep taking things a bit at a time until there's nothing left to take. Giving them excuses like these FRT's is us being our own worse enemy. Yes, all arms are a right. FRT's are NOT arms and the 2A doesn't mention "mechanical implements". But forcing the ATF to define something as silly as an FRT a firearm is cutting our own throats.
Look at bump stocks and pistol braces. Middle finger to .gov, banned. Neither are firearms but here we are.
I don't think you're fully understanding the implication here. The NFA and GCA are direct infringements on 2A. Clever individuals are creating mechanical implements to circumvent the infringement. Please explain how it is logical to blame the victim of infringement for further infringement. Let's not skate around the fact that 2A is explicitly about killing people. Specifically, it's about killing people who would take that very right away, foreign or domestic. The fact that the populace is unwilling to fully utilize 2A as intended is the problem, not that ".gov" as you call it (which I'm gonna steal) continues to infringe.

If you have a pack of wolves slowly closing in on a herd of sheep, do you blame the wolves for hunting prey? If the sheep just stand there and let themselves get eaten, is that the wolves' fault or the sheep? The answer is obviously to shoot the wolves.

The reason 2A and all natural rights for that matter, get endlessly trampled by .gov is because the bad guys think they are the good guys, and the actual good guys don't know when it's time to kill the bad guys.
 

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I don't think you're fully understanding the implication here. The NFA and GCA are direct infringements on 2A. Clever individuals are creating mechanical implements to circumvent the infringement. Please explain how it is logical to blame the victim of infringement for further infringement. Let's not skate around the fact that 2A is explicitly about killing people. Specifically, it's about killing people who would take that very right away, foreign or domestic. The fact that the populace is unwilling to fully utilize 2A as intended is the problem, not that ".gov" as you call it (which I'm gonna steal) continues to infringe.

If you have a pack of wolves slowly closing in on a herd of sheep, do you blame the wolves for hunting prey? If the sheep just stand there and let themselves get eaten, is that the wolves' fault or the sheep? The answer is obviously to shoot the wolves.

The reason 2A and all natural rights for that matter, get endlessly trampled by .gov is because the bad guys think they are the good guys, and the actual good guys don't know when it's time to kill the bad guys.
[/QUOTEAnd the odd thing about it, is that Howard Metzenbaum, a jew, was the primary architect of the GDC of 1968. He massively plagiarized the Nazi German Waffen Gasaetz (sp) which was their gun control and confiscation law.
 

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I don't think you're fully understanding the implication here. The NFA and GCA are direct infringements on 2A. Clever individuals are creating mechanical implements to circumvent the infringement. Please explain how it is logical to blame the victim of infringement for further infringement. Let's not skate around the fact that 2A is explicitly about killing people. Specifically, it's about killing people who would take that very right away, foreign or domestic. The fact that the populace is unwilling to fully utilize 2A as intended is the problem, not that ".gov" as you call it (which I'm gonna steal) continues to infringe.

If you have a pack of wolves slowly closing in on a herd of sheep, do you blame the wolves for hunting prey? If the sheep just stand there and let themselves get eaten, is that the wolves' fault or the sheep? The answer is obviously to shoot the wolves.

The reason 2A and all natural rights for that matter, get endlessly trampled by .gov is because the bad guys think they are the good guys, and the actual good guys don't know when it's time to kill the bad guys.
the truth.quote from george washington GOVERNMENT IS NOT REASON,IT IS LIKE FIRE,A FEARFUL SERVANT AND A TERRIBLE MASTER.
 

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These things are no more a firearm than a screw driver. They aren't a component of any known firearm, they are an accessory that are not protected by 2A. That the ATF is giving them validation by attempting to regulate them is laughable but it is what it is. People finding ways to give .gov the finger while daring them to do something about it is wrecking the firearm ownership in the country one small piece at a time and .gov is all too happy to oblige. Keep poking that bear and they'll keep taking things a bit at a time until there's nothing left to take. Giving them excuses like these FRT's is us being our own worse enemy. Yes, all arms are a right. FRT's are NOT arms and the 2A doesn't mention "mechanical implements". But forcing the ATF to define something as silly as an FRT a firearm is cutting our own throats.
Look at bump stocks and pistol braces. Middle finger to .gov, banned. Neither are firearms but here we are.
Bro are you high?
 

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I don't think you're fully understanding the implication here. The NFA and GCA are direct infringements on 2A. Clever individuals are creating mechanical implements to circumvent the infringement. Please explain how it is logical to blame the victim of infringement for further infringement. Let's not skate around the fact that 2A is explicitly about killing people. Specifically, it's about killing people who would take that very right away, foreign or domestic. The fact that the populace is unwilling to fully utilize 2A as intended is the problem, not that ".gov" as you call it (which I'm gonna steal) continues to infringe.

If you have a pack of wolves slowly closing in on a herd of sheep, do you blame the wolves for hunting prey? If the sheep just stand there and let themselves get eaten, is that the wolves' fault or the sheep? The answer is obviously to shoot the wolves.

The reason 2A and all natural rights for that matter, get endlessly trampled by .gov is because the bad guys think they are the good guys, and the actual good guys don't know when it's time to kill the bad guys.
The ATF is a direct infringement on the second amendment. No where in the U.S. Constitution does it say what kind of gun or device is legal or illegal. A government bureaucracy can not determine legality of a firearm or device. Shall not be infringed means shall not be infringed. Every single gun control law is illegal (unconstitutional).

I would also add the 10th amendment covers ammo and any firearm device. The constitution does not give the government the power to regulate guns, ammo, or firearm devices. For the federal government to have this power, it has to be explicitly stated in the constitution.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
 

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O.K. here goes. I'll probably get attacked for my opinion, but as we all know, opinions are like assholes--everyone's got one, so fuck it.
Yeah, I do believe we are poking the bear with developing "braces", FRTs, etc. Hey, don't get me wrong, I've got a couple binary triggers just for yucks, but I also have around sixteen pieces in the federal registry. It would be nice to go back to the 1920s and just pick up a Thompson at the local hardware store, but those days are gone thanks to our grandparents and great-grandparents for letting the NFA of 1934 happen and ultimately the GCA of 1968. Don't even get me started on 1986 (fuck Bill Elmer Fudd Ruger), but that's a subject for another time.
I believe what we need to focus on is getting the NFA and GCA repealed, rather than finding ways to circumvent those statutes. Is it that I'm missing something here? Have we given up on that uphill battle and just settled for the easy (lazy or defeatist) way of circumvention? I do think the route we've taken gives .gov ammunition to regulate us to death.
I don't blame the people that come up with these gadgets. Hell, they're just trying to make a buck which is fine and dandy by capitalizing on man's primordial desire to shoot full auto (or at least damn near). You can take almost any anti-gun liberal (sounds like a contradiction in terms) to the range and have them fire a full auto (or a Barrett .50BMG I've noticed) and they will get that same shit-eating grin right after the first volley that everyone else does. It's only natural---it's the feeling of power! So, as I said, I don't blame the gadget manufacturers, but I do blame us for not relentlessly going after NFA/GCA. Don't worry BATFE, you'll still have the bootleggers, tobacco tax dodgers and would-be bombers (especially with our current non-existent border) to go after and keep you busy.
 

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O.K. here goes. I'll probably get attacked for my opinion, but as we all know, opinions are like assholes--everyone's got one, so fuck it.
Yeah, I do believe we are poking the bear with developing "braces", FRTs, etc. Hey, don't get me wrong, I've got a couple binary triggers just for yucks, but I also have around sixteen pieces in the federal registry. It would be nice to go back to the 1920s and just pick up a Thompson at the local hardware store, but those days are gone thanks to our grandparents and great-grandparents for letting the NFA of 1934 happen and ultimately the GCA of 1968. Don't even get me started on 1986 (fuck Bill Elmer Fudd Ruger), but that's a subject for another time.
I believe what we need to focus on is getting the NFA and GCA repealed, rather than finding ways to circumvent those statutes. Is it that I'm missing something here? Have we given up on that uphill battle and just settled for the easy (lazy or defeatist) way of circumvention? I do think the route we've taken gives .gov ammunition to regulate us to death.
I don't blame the people that come up with these gadgets. Hell, they're just trying to make a buck which is fine and dandy by capitalizing on man's primordial desire to shoot full auto (or at least damn near). You can take almost any anti-gun liberal (sounds like a contradiction in terms) to the range and have them fire a full auto (or a Barrett .50BMG I've noticed) and they will get that same shit-eating grin right after the first volley that everyone else does. It's only natural---it's the feeling of power! So, as I said, I don't blame the gadget manufacturers, but I do blame us for not relentlessly going after NFA/GCA. Don't worry BATFE, you'll still have the bootleggers, tobacco tax dodgers and would-be bombers (especially with our current non-existent border) to go after and keep you busy.
I am not going to attack you for your opinion. But I will have a discussion with you.

I don’t know if I would call it poking the bear. When government comes up with stupid or unconstitutional laws, people try to find a way around that law.

Why not do both? Work to repeal NFA and GCA while coming up with a way around these unconstitutional laws.

One problem is that politicians keep coming up with new anti-gun bills that gun rights groups and citizens have to continuously fight against along with other unconstitutional laws and regulations not gun related. We never get a break from having our liberties being attacked.

You and I both know that no matter what manufacturers or gun owners do, it is not enough or the right thing for the gun grabbers. Gun grabbers will never stop because they do not want people to be armed so they can control people. As Pirelli said in their ads “power is nothing without control”. Pirelli is talking about tires but it applies to government too.
 

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Well then, since power is nothing without control, we need to take control of Congress and the Executive branch of government. Some heavy bribery, I mean "lobbying", probably wouldn't hurt--just ask Brandon.
 

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Problem is (see: the Bush/Cheney/Romney globalists) the establishment wing of the party has no desire to undo government control of people which has served/enriched them for decades.
 

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Again the problem is that nobody in power wants the people to have the means to remove them from power. Repealing the bad laws is one thing but we had the chance to do that.. for 4 years. and once again not only was there no significant forward momentum on the suppressor and fastbang front, 'our guy' went for a ban on bumpies. what the frig.

Repealing something that big and entrenched is a tremendous undertaking. Many millions of dollars are at stake, not counting 'residual income' in the form of taxes from transfers. There's also the confiscatory nature of govt. to just take your shit and keep it or destroy it. I would argue that the 2nd Amendment has been broken hundreds of thousands of times. Shall not be infringed and yet they infringe upon it. Why would infringing on the infringements be bad?

Would you consider a shoelace a machine gun? The ATF does. It's patently absurd, but there you have it.
 
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What do you suggest then?
The game is rigged. It has always been rigged. The biggest obstacle for every liberty-loving individual is their own liberty-hating neighbors (and maybe even themselves). While the masses are busy playing tribal wars with (R) vs (D) every election cycle, nothing positive ever comes out of it. The (R)s can't even hold the line, let alone repeal anything, while the (D)s are going full-steam ahead on totalitarianism. So long as the majority of this country can't get their heads out of their asses and force a massive wave of 3rd party intrusion into the two-party system, nothing with change. Libertarians are more than capable of completely replacing the republicans as the true party of freedom.

That's the political strategy at least...Here's the individual strategy. The one nobody wants to talk about because it requires individual initiative and actual work....

Mass noncompliance. Refuse to obey bad laws. Talk to everyone you know about jury nullification. Talk to everyone you know about the principles of liberty and what it means to be free. With mass noncompliance combined with jury nullification (requiring a highly educated public which is the hard part), there is not a single law in the books that they can throw you in a cage over because the jury will refuse to convict. And remember, you only need ONE juror to refuse to convict.

The absolute last resort is meeting force with force. When arguments no longer work because logic is being ignored in favor of insanity, then the last resort is to answer their totalitarian force with force of our own. This no doubt, is the least desirable outcome for everyone, but the founders recognized the importance of keeping this option on the table and used it effectively to win independence from the world super power of their time.

Failing or being unwilling to do any of these things, totalitarianism has already won. These conversations become utterly ineffectual and are reduced down to nothing more than bickering amongst those who are ultimately going to peacefully comply.
 
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