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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Getting curious about East German optics and wondering which models were fielded and in approximately which years they would have been used. I have seen pictures of NSP-2 optics setup on what I believe were early MPiKMs; I also know the ZFK 4x25 was used in the late 80s on the MPiKm74; I dont however know if they had a BDC for the M43 round for the late model AKMs. I dont know what were used to fill in the gaps with between the early 60s and MPiK and late 60s MPiKM service w/ the NSP2 and the MPiKM74 and the ZFK. Are there other daylight and nighttime optics that were used by the NVA? Anyone have photos or published sources they could recommend... (German language is okay for me)? Anyone have a source with info on what was made and when in the DDR? Finally, curious as to which optic/s would have been fielded on a '69 MPiKM in its first few years of service (daylight and/or night)? Thanks.
 
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Good conversation! Just the type of topic to motivate me to post.

The primary reason any Kalashnikov made prevous to the 1980's had an optics rail would have been for night vision.

BELOW: Here's a virtually mint condition 1971-dated East German NSP-2, it gives a damn good indication of when these rifles were produced:



Here's the full meal deal, 1971-dated NSP-2 equipment set with transit can. these were issued with both MPi-KM-N and LMG-K-N rifles :



BELOW: An NVA soldier with ubiquitous MPi-KM-N night-fighting complex. Note the rail looks to be identical to the one I sold on the marketplace (wonder who bought it, hehe?). The low positioning of the dovetail portion, and forward rivet head location are both a dead give-away as this is a little different than what you would have seen on the Russian scope rails of that same time time. It's also geared towards use of the NSP-2 due to the rearward location of the dovetail.

Since the NSP-2 illustrated above is dated 1971, that gives you an indication of when this sight was in service on that rifle with this scope rail. That should help you in your question about dating these things, that and the style of the rifle.

I don't have enough examples of DDR NSP-2 manufacturing dates to provide a better range of years for these. I'd guess from the very beginning of MPi-KM production until at least the late 1970's. Maybe someone else can contribute to this discussion, somebody deep into German AK's? There's also a lot of original NVA manuals and other publications out there in collector's hands to extract dates from.

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Excellent info, thanks Tantal! That NSP-2 setup is the Bee's knees and glad to see it indicating use on the MPi-KM. Very cool.

Anyone know a good written history/catalog of DDR militaria (optics specifically)? Any ideas about what would have replaced the NSP-2 and when? Any production info on other scopes in the DDR? I know Poland fielded the NSP-3; are there Czech, East German, or Hungarian examples around? What about daylight scopes before the ZFK?

There was a MPi-K that I believe Stottman photographed in a museum in Germany; the pic is below and the original thread is here:
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/40-east-german/27787-eg-special-rifles.html



DDRAksniper.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So an afternoon of googling has led me to a list of weapons cataloged by the NVA in 1983. This manifest or the so-called Raketen und Waffentechnischen Dienst (RWD) is a list of weaponry and technical accessories for the National People's Army and each individual item is cataloged with a number.

Apparently there were catalog numbers for the following:

11 02 00 MPi-K
11 03 00 MPi-K mit Halterung fuer NSP-2 (with mount for NSP-2)

11 04 00 MPi-KM
11 07 00 MPi-KM mit Halterung fuer NSP-2 (with mount for NSP-2)

In addition to the rifles the NVA also cataloged their scopes:

11 07 80 for the NSP2 Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nachtsichtgerät NSP-2
14 02 00 for the NSPU Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nachtsichtgerät NSPU
no number listed for the NSP3, but it is listed with info on both the NSP3 (original) and NSP3A (improved) Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nachtsichtgerät NSP-3 (1PN27 / 1PN28)
no number listed for the PPN-2 Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nachtsichtgerät PPN-2

In addition to these details, there was apparently a written manual with the title "Nachtsichtgeräte PPN 2 und NSP 2 für Schützenwaffen" that was distributed by the NVA. I would imagine that resource would have more info on the mount/rail used.
 
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Very nice research. I believe (but could be wrong) that although the NSP-2 was manufactured inside Germany, they simply bought NSP-3 and NSPU's from Russia directly, instead of obtaining an expensive license to produce them locally.

In the black-and-white image I posted above, i think that NSP-2 is an earlier model than the 1971 shown in the can, due to the way the data plate is screwed on. In other words, it might be a Soviet unit with a German-language instruction plate simply attached with screws.

if in fact the Germans issue NSP-3 (which I was unaware of/have seen no evidence of although it seems logical), then that means they had to stop using NSP-2 by the middle 1970's. I bet the 1971 NSP-2 above was one of the later made units. Most Warsaw pact countries started making their own NSP-2's by about 1963-65. Germany might have waited a little longer lets say 1969 or so to make domestics, but it could have been as early as 1965

I was fully aware that the DDR bought and used Soviet-made NSPU's by 1978, so i figured if they were making NSP-2's in 1971 then they probably skipped trying to use NSP-3's altogether. Your information of the use of NSP-3 in the NPA is based on an official DDR-derived document?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Of the four scopes that I included (links included above) only the NSP3 and the PPN-2 are not identified by their inventory number. The PPN-2 was however referenced in the NVA document mentioned above. The NSP-3 scope details which I had used, however, cites only a Russian and not a German source, thus making it a bit suspect. Furthermore, what should be THE list of NV Optics from the NVA, which is elsewhere on the site (and included below): Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nummernverzeichnis does NOT list the NSP-3, but does list both the NSP 2 and NPSU. For that reason, Tantal's observations seem to be spot on.

I have included some other lists below. They seem to indicate that the NSPU was used on NVA PKMs, not on MPiKMs or AK74Ns. Also interesting is the identification of a NSP-2 as well as an NBP-2 [??] the distinguishing feature being their association with either the MPiK or the MPiKM.

Nummernverzeichnis


Hauptgruppe: Optische und Artillerietechnische Geräte
Gruppe: Nachtsichtgeräte

NummerBezeichnungIndex/Kennzeichen
020100Nacht-Doppelfernrohr 1PN33B
020700Nachtsichtgerät PNW-57
020702Instandsetzungssatz
020900Infrarotanzeiger
022000Nachtsichtgerät NNP-211PN32
022001Gruppensaatz 1:6
022002Instandsetzungssatz 1:18
02+Nachtsichtgerät NSP-2s. 110780
02+Nachtsichtgerät NSPUs. 140280
02+Nachtsichtgerät PGN-9/-9Ms. 200480
02+Nachtsichtgerät APN-3-7s. 200780
02+Nachtsichtgerät APN 5-40s. 201080
02+Nachtsichtgerät APN 6-40s. 201180/1PN35
Source: Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nummernverzeichnis


Nummernverzeichnis


Hauptgruppe: Schützenwaffen
Gruppe: Maschinengewehre

NummerBezeichnungIndex/Kennzeichen
1301005,45-mm-leichtes Maschinengewehr KN 500
1304007,62-mm-leichtes Maschinengewehr D
1306007,62-mm-leichtes Maschinengewehr K
130603Ersatzteilsatz Wartung 1:100
1307007,62-mm-leichtes Maschinengewehr K mit Halterung für NSP-2
1307+Nachtsichtgerät NSP-2s. 110780
1310007,62-mm-leichtes Maschinengewehr K mit abklappbarem Kolben
1317007,62-mm-schweres Maschinengewehr K
131701Ersatzteilsatz 1:50
131702Instandsetzungssatz 1:200
1318007,62-mm-schweres Maschinengewehr PKMN-1 mit NSG NSPU
1318+Nachtsichtgerät NSPUs. 140280
1319007,62-mm-schweres Maschinengewehr PKMBN-1 mit NSG NSPU
1319+Nachtsichtgerät NSPUs. 140280
1321007,62-mm-schweres Maschinengewehr PKM
Source:
Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nummernverzeichnis

Nummernverzeichnis


Hauptgruppe: Schützenwaffen
Gruppe: Maschinenpistolen

NummerBezeichnungIndex/Kennzeichen
1102007,62-mm-Maschinenpistole K
1103007,62-mm-MaschinenpistolB K mit Halterung für NSP-2
1103+Nachtsichtgerät NSP-2s. 110780
1104007,62-mm-Maschinenpistole KM
110403Ersatzteilsatz Wartung für AKM und KMS-72
1106007,62-mm-Maschinenpistole KmS
1107007,62-mm-Maschinenpistole KM mit Halterung für NBP-2
110780Nachtsichtgerät NBP-2
1108007,62-mm-Maschinenpistole KMS-72
1109009-mm-Maschinenpistole PM-63
1110007,65-mm-Maschinenpistole 61 "Skorpion"
1120005,45-mm-MaschinenpiBeole AKS 74N
112020Zielfernrohr ZFK 4x25
1121005,45-mm-Maschinenpistole AK 74N
1121+Zielfernrohr ZFK 4x25s. 112020
1130005,45-mm-Maschinenpistole AKS 74NK
1170005,6-mm-Maschinenpistole 69
117001Ersatzteilsatz 1:100
Source:Raketen- und Waffentechnischer Dienst (RWD) - Nummernverzeichnis
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Found some more info... in the form of pics
NPSU1.jpg

pk.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Does anyone know if there is a rail out there that would match the specs on the KMS-72? I believe I read that the RMP-3 wont work on an AKM.
 

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ZFK Scope serial number code:

A 1988
B 1989
C 1990
D 1991

I think you might like that info ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Where did you find this info?
 

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Freaking awesome! My ZFK is a B prefix!
 
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I'm curious to know...

The ZFK scope I have is B prefix and is numbered 0000616. Does anyone have a C or D prefix that is numbered LOWER than 616? I'm wondering if they reset the number with each year or just kept going as a 7 digit number for one year is rather optimistic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I am going to start listing serials I can find here:

A 133

A 203

A 308 (AZAK)

B 418 (ebay)

B 616 (Weaponmark)

B 626 (ebay)

B 664

B 764 (fr. Falli Guy)

B 1079 (fr. Falli Guy)

B 1089 (ebay)

B 1186

B 1251

B 1288 (BLACKTALON)

B 1513

C 1662 (ebay)

C 1710

C 1733

C 1759

C 1775 (Obstreperous)

C 1945

C 1958 (fr. Falli Guy)

C 1985 (fr. Falli Guy)

C 2133 (mine)

C 2239 (on ebay)

C 2283

C 2304 (formerly mine)
 
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I guess that confirms a continuous serial number.


For the record, I have the red lens.
 

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Here are some other serial numbers of scopes I have saved photos of...

C2283

C1958

C1985

B1079

B0764
 

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A0000308, temporarily on a wz88 (the Poles bought a few) but will migrate to an EG74 when its built.
 
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