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Discussion Starter #1
This is for informational purposes only. Propane, LP, is extremely dangerous you should have a licensed contractor build, create, install any propane appliances you use.

That being said I have been building AKs with Jerod another member here. He has been finishing my rifles for quite a few years and needed just one upgrade to match the level of his refinishing abilities. Thats where I thought I could help him out.

Our plan was to make a dual tank rig with pipe burners for his parkerize and degreasing operations. He had been using an inefficnent burner that only worked for one tank at a time. It was time for an upgrade. Both tanks are 40"x6"x6" with covers, one tank is used for degreasing is made from mild steel and the other is stainless steel for the parkerize solution.

The unit needed to be able to be moved easily for keeping the shop clean and with tank covers, the liquids should stay in the tanks when moving the unit. One end of the unit has fixed wheels and the other locking swivel castors.

The pipe burning is the key to uniform heat distributed across the tank. The pipes were 4' 3/4" black pipe with endcaps. The hole pattern was 7/64" holes 1 inch spacing for 40". The ends were given some space for clamping the pipe to the framework. The control end is all brass having a brass 3/8" flare male (propane fitting) to 1/4" male, 1/4" Brass ball valve shutoff a 1/4" to 1/8" reducer (pipe endcap is drilled just large enough to fit the 1/8" end through)and a 1/8" female endcap that I drilled with a #55 hole. The Drilled Brass cap went on inside the steel pipe cap holding it tight. With Propane, a blue flame is the most efficient, if you have yellow flames you have too much fuel and not enough mixed air. Some time went into the tuning of the venturi (mixing area where propane comes out and receives air). The venturi endcap needed 6 holes 1/4" drilled to allow for enough air to mix with the propane. The holes left enough integrity for the mount of gasline and not interfere with either the caps or pipes threads.

Some minor work is needed for mounting the pipes and its ready for paint. More Pictures to come after just before and after paint.










Here is a similar product by Lauer's
http://www.lauerweaponry.com/index.cfm? ... 6%20Burner

At Brownells stand and burner.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ ... NK%20STAND

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ ... E%20BURNER
 

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Can't wait to use it ! Brownells and lauers must think their stuff is made of gold ! To buy a setup like ours without the wheels , and slick side by side tanks it would be around $700.00 shipped if I did my math correct! We will have around $150.00 plus our time !
Tango has done a great job and this will complete our finishing system . 14 AK builds to go . :dance:
 

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man, you got the flame just right !!

awesome rig, brilliant job !!


I have a heated garage, you probably do too. Is there a reason you went with propane vs natural gas? certainly being portable is nice, but natgas would be more cost efficient right?

what material are your tanks made out of?


your mig welder has definitely earned it keep !!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the compliments!!

Propane for 2 reasons, portability and already had 2 tanks one for the gas grill and a spare. Natural gas would have been used if it were more of a permanent setup. I like being able to configure my workshop to suit the projects at the time. Most everything is on castors for that reason.

The tanks are steel (painted visible above for degreasing) and one stainless (used for the parkerizing solution).

Because of future projects that I am plannign I designed and are installing a fresh air replacement system for my garage. Ulimately I want to Gas weld, torch cut, and autobody paint with all doors closed, and just the ventilation system running. That works for venting the phosphate gas from parkerize operation in an enclosed area too.
 

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I know what you mean. I have resotored old cars for years. all my tools,mig welder and 4' argon/co2 tank, metal bending/shear press,huge vice,tool boxes,big parts washer are on heavy dudy castors. with many of them like the welder rig and the vice/metal bender on big rigs with trays to hold clamps and air tools. even my big aircompressor is on castors!!

nothing worse than working around a dirty gagarge !! metal work,car restos, and tool building is messy.grindings,dust and trash accumulate and in no time tools are everywhere. Its mentally disturbing to have to bumble around trash,dirt while looking for tools and working.

I have had some experience with building ventilation setups(hobbyist wise) for garages. I can tell you there is a reason,when it comes to painting, why they make paint booths small !! at my old house I had a dual squirrel cage vet fan from an old paint booth, mounted on the wall for vetilating paint fumes. well, even that big azz rig, it still had a hard time getting all the fumes out fast !!! right now I have one squirrel cage fan above my huge work bench, at the end where I have a small park rig, it works great for that, but as for clearing out the whole garage(paint wise) I would need a major rig.

now given what you have done in the past, and your expertise, I would love to see the vent rig you make!
 

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Very professional Man!
You made my own home made burner rig look like a tree fort built by kids by comparison!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Sidcarnutz,
Yours, Z-recto's, and Motorcityman's tank heaters inspired us to eventually get rolling on this project. We do not have any intention right now for bluing so we don't need the extra heat for bluing.

What we have here is an extremely efficient tank heater that gets the liquid up to temperature in a short period of time and easily maintains that temperature for Parkerizing.

If we were going to get into Hot Bluing the flame would need to be adjusted (probability adding a minor tuned amount of compressed air) in order for it to burn hotter to reach those temps.

I will be finishing the fabrication tonight and will get some more pics up tonight then its ready for paint.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Here is the last of the rig ready for paint. We ended up with a different shutoff valve the small red handle was made in Italy. It functioned just as fine as the yellow handled shutoff. Both easly allowed the flame to be run as low as 3/8 inch flame up from the pipe.
After a couple of Acetone rub downs the steel will get a few coats of white enamel. The heat may burn some off but the rest will be well protected.




 

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I put the finish on it tonight . Man it looks nice. I will try to pst Pics on Sat.
 

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Jerod said:
I put the finish on it tonight . Man it looks nice. I will try to pst Pics on Sat.

how long did she take to get to proper temp?


once again, you guys did a top notch job !!!
 

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Nice job ! Your going to need a larger dia. pipe with twice the number of hole for hot blue. It takes alot of BTU's for caustic salts if you want I can get the spec's from my Brownells setup. for what its worth make a diffuser plate out of 1/4 plate to even out the heat between the burner & tanks or you will get hot spots down the center. It will be noticable on the inside of park tank. The flock that develops will have to be removed with a scraper. its gets hard as a rock and sucks to remove. also dont leave the park solution in the tank. after every use its best to decant the solution after it cools,and store it in 5 gallon plastic containers. With hot salt blue never adjust the solution temp by lowering the flame .. you adjust the temp by either adding more water or chemical After 20+ years of breathing fumes from this crap I picked up some good info along the way...feel free to PM me.
 

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interesting comment gundoc !!

SO THAT CRAP I get on the bottom of my small park rig is called "flock".......and it comes from hot spots. yeah, that crap is a pain to remove and I noticed it messes up the park solution too :evil:

I noticed it happens right where the heat is concentrated......so I need defuse the heat,eh?
 

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Yes. a piece of 1/4 or 3/8 mild steel plate that will cover the entire area below the tank. all it does is distribute the heat evenly. I use the plates on both my park & hot blue tanks. Its also very important to drain the park solution after every use. It can be left in the tank but I have found it to be eaiser to store it in plastic jugs. it will stop the loss of solution from evaporation ,and there is no worry of contamination.n : From Brownells park instructions DIFFUSER PLATE: It is highly recommended that a 3⁄8" steel plate be
placed between the Parkerizing Tank and the burner flame, regardless
of which type of tank you use for the Parkerizing phase, to act as
a heat/flame diffuser. Without this Diffuser Plate, hot spots tend to
develop across the bottom of the Parkerizing Tank, which can cause
the naturally occurring residue formed during the Parkerizing process
to bake onto the inside of the Parkerizing Tank, making it very difficult
to remove. STORAGE
The Parkerizing Solution can be left in the Parkerizing Tank
between uses as long as it is covered to keep out dirt, bugs, and other
contaminants. Freezing does not damage the Parkerizing Solution,
but do not attempt to heat frozen Parkerizing Solution without first
allowing it to thaw at room temperature. The Parkerizing Solution can
also be stored in plastic jugs or buckets after decanting. SLUDGE REMOVAL One easy method of sludge removal is to decant the Parkerizing
Solution. This is the same technique used by wine makers to separate
the clear wine from the dead yeast and other byproducts of fermentation.
First, allow the Parkerizing Solution to cool down to room
temperature, then add water to return it to the proper operating level.
After cooling, the sludge will settle to the bottom of the Parkerizing
Tank, allowing the clear Parkerizing Solution to be drawn off using a
siphon hose made from surgical tubing. Cut a length of surgical tubing
long enough to reach from the inside bottom of the Parkerizing
Tank to a plastic bucket or other container sitting on the floor. Fill
the section of tubing with water and pinch both ends closed with your
fingers. Place one end under the surface of the Parkerizing Solution
and the other in the bucket. Release both at the same time, and the
Parkerizing Solution will siphon into the bucket. Keep the upper end
of the tubing under the surface of the Parkerizing Solution until the
level is drawn down to the settled-out sludge. Withdraw the hose
and stop the siphoning when the surface of the Parkerizing Solution
reaches the sludge. Use a spring clip to hold the hose in place so you
don’t have to stand over it during the decanting process. Remove the
sludge that is left from the Parkerizing Tank and dispose of it. If any
hard deposits remain on the bottom or sides of the Parkerizing Tank,
remove them with scratch pads, scrapers, or by sand blasting.
HERE IS THE LINK TO THE COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS ...... http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Genera ... rizing.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Gundoc
Jerod has been parkerizing, my guns, for at least 5 years. I know he uses a diffuser plate for his park tank and none for the degreasing tank. IIRC it may be 1/8" or 3/16". He may need to consider thicker from what you say. He never really planned to get into Hot Bluing. But, you never know for sure what peaks your interest in the future. I would be interested in the specs. for the Bluing setup you use.

I just don't spend the time on refinishing like he does. It would take me too many years of trial and error to get were he is now. My side is the shade tree smithing, and fabricating. It still amazes me when fresh Alu/Ox blasted steel gets a park bath in a steaming liquid and it comes out all fuzzy. :grin:

Here is another project I built it has 20 ton Air/Hydraulic jack real handy thing for this AK hobby. I overbuilt it planning on the possible future need for a 50 ton Air/Hydraulic jack.
 

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tangotag,
I will PM you the specs for the burner ,and take some pics of the setup...it will be a few days before I can do it. I have a few jobs to finish then I'm going to tear it down for cleaning and maintenance..You do nice work that press looks great. One day if I ever get time I want to build a new set of stands just like my Brownells setup....with one major difference...they will be made out of stainless steel.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The maiden voyage of the pipe burner results. Its all painted in a flat white.

To reach parkerizing temps 180 degrees it took 55 minutes with a 40" stainless steel park tank and a 3/16" diffuser plate. Solution started at 70 degrees. Once the park temp was reached it was very easily maintained. I am thinking that maybe the holes should be drilled at 1/2" interval and re-adjust the venturi for the extra holes. (the current spacing requires igniting each hole manually, this was an initial concern when testing the venturi) More holes would increase the BTUs and cut the time for initial heating.

Cross ventilation could be visible with the flames installing some draft stops could help, though no much heat loss was visible, when watching the heat mirage.
A possible design change would be welding sheet metal to the endcaps to block cross air flow and a shield below and between the tanks for stopping any cross draft but allowing heat to flow evenly up the sides of the tank. Essentially its a 3 sided draft stop of sheetmetal.

When moving the tank stand on castors. The liquid needs to be drained at least halfway and always moves very slowly with the covers on the tanks.

The heat was very even no currents were visible in the solution other than heat rise. The old center heating with a campstove type setup created convective heat currents.
 

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I will send you the size on the gas jet orifice in the air/gas mixing head later today..they are different for NG & LPG it should take about 15/20 mins for the solution to reach operating temp. your not just dumping gas into the burner pipe are you ? I was going to mention something about it being on wheels...its best if its anchored to the floor...boiling hot caustic chemical burns are bad news if you bumped it while it was in operation.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
TIA Gundoc for the info on your burner.

Gas dump no, using the same size oriface hole that I measured on a couple of propane gas grills.

...The control end is all brass having a brass 3/8" flare male (propane fitting) to 1/4" male, 1/4" Brass ball valve shutoff a 1/4" to 1/8" reducer (pipe endcap is drilled just large enough to fit the 1/8" end through)and a 1/8" female endcap that I drilled with a #55 hole. ...
If somebody bumps into a burning tank of liquid they have bigger problems than we can solve here.

The unit needed to be able to be moved easily for keeping the shop clean and with tank covers, the liquids should stay in the tanks when moving the unit. One end of the unit has fixed wheels and the other locking swivel castors
The liquids will stay in as long as the tanks are only half full and you move it very slowly. With the tanks full and the 2 swivel castors locked and the heat running it did not move while parking rifles.

I looked back at Motorcityman's post on his parkerizing rig was a 1/2" pipe with 1/8" holes every 1/2" and he thought it could have gone with 1" spacing but at the time he was not using a diffuser plate. Though, there was no mention on the length of time to temp.
 

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tango I see you mentioned it took 55 minutes to heat the rig to opperating temp. that makes me wonder how long a tank of propane last?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Ultimately it takes BTUs to heat water. The faster the water gets heated the more BTUs are needed to heat it. Faster = More gas, more holes (less time) currently, this setup is Slow = Less gas (more time). Doubling the holes would use more gas heating for less time if I am thinking this through correctly. I could be missing something here too.

There is some adjustment needed, 15-20 should be and acceptable time to increase 100 degrees. This is Jerod's rig he seems fine with it now, I would try these changes adding more holes, adjust the venturi, and add draft shields only if he wants. His old heating method, camp type burner, was about 30 minutes to raise 100 degrees but was localized heating and there was a lot of wasted heat and he preferred the uniform heating of the pipe method.

I expect Gundoc's info may assist in adjusting hole size and or spacing, possibly a larger oriface size too.

In lighting the pipe with gas turned on I expect you would light the first gas hole and the others will self light. (tighter hole spacing) Adding a push button battery igniter would be really cool feature to add on the rig. If the draft shields get installed.
 
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