AK Rifles banner
1 - 20 of 78 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Reportedly, AMD-65s see service with the Cuban Army. Couldn't find but one photo of what purports to be Cubans with AMD-65s:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/j ... ubahh3.jpg

Found it on an Airsoft forum, so no telling about the accuracy of the description, but perhaps someone with knowledge of Cuban militaria might be able to confirm or deny.

If anyone knows of any other photos, please post them.

Also, can anyone tell me what sort of sling is being used here? My knowledge of slings is rather lacking and if it's not Yugo or Chinese, I don't know enough to even guess.

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,323 Posts
The sling looks like a Hungarian leather sling.

Honestly, the entire picture looks like it could be Hungarian to me, but I don't see anything conclusive I can point out. If we had a view of the top half of that guy's hat, we could tell - Hungarians had funny hats :mrgreen:

All I can find about Cuban use of AMD-65s is stuff without any citations. People just saying "oh yeah and they have AMD-65s, too". All the actual pictures I find are the standard AKM and AKMS with nearly black wood.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Reportedly, AMD-65s see service with the Cuban Army. Couldn't find but one photo of what purports to be Cubans with AMD-65s:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/j ... ubahh3.jpg

Found it on an Airsoft forum, so no telling about the accuracy of the description, but perhaps someone with knowledge of Cuban militaria might be able to confirm or deny.

If anyone knows of any other photos, please post them.

Also, can anyone tell me what sort of sling is being used here? My knowledge of slings is rather lacking and if it's not Yugo or Chinese, I don't know enough to even guess.

Thanks!
From what I know, Cuban troops in Angola had AMDs. They may have basically borrowed them from the MPLA government, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Hungary sold 12000pcs AMD-65 directly to Cuba between 1972-1975. Based on FÉG and Hungarian Foreign Trade Ministry archives.

311389


Fidel Castro with the 1st Cuban AMD-65 on June 1, 1972. He got it directly from the Chief of The Hungarian Army General Lajos Czinege, during a Cuban-Hungarian military exercise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
907 Posts
Hungary sold 12000pcs AMD-65 directly to Cuba between 1972-1975. Based on FÉG and Hungarian Foreign Trade Ministry archives.

View attachment 311389

Fidel Castro with the 1st Cuban AMD-65 on June 1, 1972. He got it directly from the Chief of The Hungarian Army General Lajos Czinege, during a Cuban-Hungarian military exercise.
Would you say this map is relatively accurate regarding the distribution of Hungarian AK models: AKM63, AMD65, AK63 etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Hard to recognize all of the countries based on the map, but Hungary definitely sold its guns to much more countries based on archive records: (COARM, Bonn International Center for Conversion, British American Security Information Council, Federation of American Scientists Arms Sales Monitoring Project, FÉG Trading Archives, Hungarian Trade Licensing Office National Report on Arms Export Controls, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, World Policy Institute)

Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Angola, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Ethiopia, Germany, Georgia, Greece, Guinea, India, Iran, Italy, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Luxemburg, Morocco, Mozambique, Panama, Peru, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Slovenia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Switzerland*****, USA, Vietnam, Yemen, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe

* Export to Switzerland always covers a 3rd party export in relation to an embargoed country.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Hungary sold 12000pcs AMD-65 directly to Cuba between 1972-1975. Based on FÉG and Hungarian Foreign Trade Ministry archives.

View attachment 311389

Fidel Castro with the 1st Cuban AMD-65 on June 1, 1972. He got it directly from the Chief of The Hungarian Army General Lajos Czinege, during a Cuban-Hungarian military exercise.
Did Hungary sell Cuba any other kinds of rifles?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Yes sure. Between 1970-1980 Hungary sold the following surplus weapons to Cuba:

TT pistols 7500
PPSh, AK-47, AMD-65 submachine gun 33800
Mosin-Nagant, SKS rifle, carbine 6050
DT, RPD, RPK machine gun 2300
ZU-1, ZU-2 AA machine gun 13
82, 120mm mortar 29
Zis-3 gun 10
37-45mm AA gun 9
Infantry ammunition 7.334.000
Artillery ammunition 75.000
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Yes sure. Between 1970-1980 Hungary sold the following surplus weapons to Cuba:

TT pistols 7500
PPSh, AK-47, AMD-65 submachine gun 33800
Mosin-Nagant, SKS rifle, carbine 6050
DT, RPD, RPK machine gun 2300
ZU-1, ZU-2 AA machine gun 13
82, 120mm mortar 29
Zis-3 gun 10
37-45mm AA gun 9
Infantry ammunition 7.334.000
Artillery ammunition 75.000
Thanks. Anything after 1980?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Between 1980-1984 just 2.410.000pcs ammo, and 4 Hungarian made patrol boat equipped with 1x20mm M71, 4x20mm M75 Jugoslavian heavy MG's. Nothing after 1984.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Between 1980-1984 just 2.410.000pcs ammo, and 4 Hungarian made patrol boat equipped with 1x20mm M71, 4x20mm M75 Jugoslavian heavy MG's. Nothing after 1984.
I was wondering if Budapest sold or gave Havana any AK-63s or AKM-63s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
I was wondering if Budapest sold or gave Havana any AK-63s or AKM-63s.
No any FÉG export to Cuba exists in the trade records in relation to AKM-63 or AK-63.

About AKM-63 it could be possible, but about AK-63 I'm sure they did not sell them any. Because FÉG just started to mass-produce AK-63 in 1980 for the Hungarian Army first. But FÉG had a lack of resources for manufacturing the AK-63's, this causes a very low number of produced AK-63F (AMM wood stock version) and AK-63D (AMMSz metal under folder stock version). So FÉG could not export any till around the early '90s. (We are talking about the full-auto version, not the semi-auto which sold to the USA under various name)

AK-63F: 1980: 35039pcs, 1981-1985: 21718pcs
AK-63D: 1980: 0pcs, 1981-1985: 50482 pcs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
No any FÉG export to Cuba exists in the trade records in relation to AKM-63 or AK-63.

About AKM-63 it could be possible, but about AK-63 I'm sure they did not sell them any. Because FÉG just started to mass-produce AK-63 in 1980 for the Hungarian Army first. But FÉG had a lack of resources for manufacturing the AK-63's, this causes a very low number of produced AK-63F (AMM wood stock version) and AK-63D (AMMSz metal under folder stock version). So FÉG could not export any till around the early '90s. (We are talking about the full-auto version, not the semi-auto which sold to the USA under various name)

AK-63F: 1980: 35039pcs, 1981-1985: 21718pcs
AK-63D: 1980: 0pcs, 1981-1985: 50482 pcs
Since I suspect that one of the purposes for designing the AK-63 was to have a rifle more exportable than the AKM-63, maybe the Hungarian government's policy towards the AK-63 per year of production is to save some for the Hungarian military, and export some. AK-63 production actually started in 1977, with rifles exported to Iraq as soon as 1979.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Well, I have doubts if any AK-63 exported before 1980. This is because based on the FÉG official records about AK-63F (AMM), the factory restarted production of the old AKM-63 with new wood furniture and created the first batch of AK-63F in August 1976 for military acceptance test. Due to bureaucracy, the first AK-63F serial batch started to produce only in November 1979. The AK-63D (AMMSz) started to produce a bit later only in April 1980.

This AK-63 could not be mixed with the older AKM-63 MAT (Műanyag Tusás) equipped with plastic grips and stock. Those guns were refurbished and their plastic parts changed to wooden ones as well as their bare metal gas tube changed to a wooden one. This called AKM-63 FAT (Fa Tusás). This was exported to various countries such as Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, and so on. Gun serials tell the truth.

AK-63 serials pool: GA XXXX - HH XXXX
AKM-63 serials pool: MA XXXX - ML XXXX (with a few exceptions: AKM-63I with infra mount have EA XXXX - EB XXXX serials)
SA-85/SA-85M serials pool: SM XXXXX - SN XXXXX

This picture is from 1980 FÉG's monthly newspaper: "For the celebration of the liberation of Hungary, on April 4, the first series of new submachine guns were produced."
312317


This Iranian Soldier from November 1982 had refurbished AKM-63 which can be distinguished by the lack of slant muzzle brake.
312318


For reference: Refurbished AKM-63's keep their old-style handguard retainer which has an extra hole at their side.
312319
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Well, I have doubts if any AK-63 exported before 1980. This is because based on the FÉG official records about AK-63F (AMM), the factory restarted production of the old AKM-63 with new wood furniture and created the first batch of AK-63F in August 1976 for military acceptance test. Due to bureaucracy, the first AK-63F serial batch started to produce only in November 1979. The AK-63D (AMMSz) started to produce a bit later only in April 1980.

This AK-63 could not be mixed with the older AKM-63 MAT (Műanyag Tusás) equipped with plastic grips and stock. Those guns were refurbished and their plastic parts changed to wooden ones as well as their bare metal gas tube changed to a wooden one. This called AKM-63 FAT (Fa Tusás). This was exported to various countries such as Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, and so on. Gun serials tell the truth.

AK-63 serials pool: GA XXXX - HH XXXX
AKM-63 serials pool: MA XXXX - ML XXXX (with a few exceptions: AKM-63I with infra mount have EA XXXX - EB XXXX serials)
SA-85/SA-85M serials pool: SM XXXXX - SN XXXXX

This picture is from 1980 FÉG's monthly newspaper: "For the celebration of the liberation of Hungary, on April 4, the first series of new submachine guns were produced."
View attachment 312317

This Iranian Soldier from November 1982 had refurbished AKM-63 which can be distinguished by the lack of slant muzzle brake.
View attachment 312318

For reference: Refurbished AKM-63's keep their old-style handguard retainer which has an extra hole at their side.
View attachment 312319
So AK-63s and AKM-63 have different hand guard retainers? Sounds like some probably lump the refurbished AKM-63s in with the AK-63s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Yes, it has different hand guarder retainers. But around the mid-'90s when FÉG was in a difficult situation they often used their old AKM-63 parts from their stock for their AK-63.

Even Hungarian soldiers were often unaware of the type of weapon they were using. Refurbished AKM-63 I FAT (with a rail for the old NSP-2 Infrared device) used as AK-63F (AMM)

312335


AKM-63 retainer
312333


AK-63 retainer
312334
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Yes, it has different hand guarder retainers. But around the mid-'90s when FÉG was in a difficult situation they often used their old AKM-63 parts from their stock for their AK-63.

Even Hungarian soldiers were often unaware of the type of weapon they were using. Refurbished AKM-63 I FAT (with a rail for the old NSP-2 Infrared device) used as AK-63F (AMM)
Interesting. I was wondering about the differences between the AKM-63 and both the Soviet original and the later AK-63.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
Yes, it has different hand guarder retainers. But around the mid-'90s when FÉG was in a difficult situation they often used their old AKM-63 parts from their stock for their AK-63.

Even Hungarian soldiers were often unaware of the type of weapon they were using. Refurbished AKM-63 I FAT (with a rail for the old NSP-2 Infrared device) used as AK-63F (AMM)

View attachment 312335

AKM-63 retainer
View attachment 312333

AK-63 retainer
View attachment 312334
So the Hungarian People's Army used both the refurbished AKM-63 FAT and the AK-63/AMM?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Interesting. I was wondering about the differences between the AKM-63 and both the Soviet original and the later AK-63.
As far as I know, the AKM-63 internals follows the Soviet drawings fully, but many external small parts redesigned or even simplified. Also, FÉG produced those parts not only for AKM-63, but AMD-65, AMP-69, AK-63, SA-85, and because those production lines are working parallel at the same time, they often have mixed part due to a lack of quality check.

And yes HU Army used both types under a common AK-63F/AMM name. But the two type of weapons is not identical.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts
As far as I know, the AKM-63 internals follows the Soviet drawings fully, but many external small parts redesigned or even simplified. Also, FÉG produced those parts not only for AKM-63, but AMD-65, AMP-69, AK-63, SA-85, and because those production lines are working parallel at the same time, they often have mixed part due to a lack of quality check.

And yes HU Army used both types under a common AK-63F/AMM name. But the two type of weapons is not identical.
For example, I don't believe the Hungarian rifles, unlike the Soviet original, has lightening grooves on the bolt.
 
1 - 20 of 78 Posts
Top