[twobyfour]

A lot of NFA item owners are fooled into believing that the ATF can come inspect your NFA stuff whenever they want. This is actually false. I got bored and made a cheat sheet for fellow Form 1 folks out there. I am not a lawyer but I do understand the English language. See below:

 

[esh21167]

Could 'actively committing a crime' be merely observation of possession of an NFA item? Like seeing someone with a crack pipe and a baggie of rock might be exigent circumstances.

 

[jrsuds]

You are entirely correct sir. I'm amazed at how many people I've run across over the decades that believed that ATF could pay you a visit whenever they want once you have acquired an NFA piece. I've been an NFA owner since 1976 and for about twenty years I had an FFL and ten of those I had an SOT stamp. The only time ATF could pay you a visit was for a compliance check at any time as an FFL/SOT holder and after a while that got changed to by appointment only. Initially, I would see them once a year and then it dwindled down to about every three years or so. Only pain in the butt was if you needed to go out of state with your NFA piece. You had to send in a form for approval prior to leaving which meant you better know well in advance of your departure date. Best I recall, it took about two or three weeks. You definitely could not leave on the spur of the moment. Mainly it was to verify that you were not taking your piece to a prohibited state where state law prohibited anyone from having NFA items. Back in the day I remember Hawaii and Michigan were two out of a handful of states that were in that category. I don't know how it is now-a-days. I think Michigan changed.

 

[jrsuds]

Could 'actively committing a crime' be merely observation of possession of an NFA item? Like seeing someone with a crack pipe and a baggie of rock might be exigent circumstances.

Depends on what you mean exactly. If you are saying that someone sees you at a range or on private property with your NFA weapon? ATF would not come out, but the local police or sheriffs could and ask to see your paperwork to verify that you had an NFA registered piece. Happened to me once years ago back in the '90s.

 

[esh21167]

Depends on what you mean exactly. If you are saying that someone sees you at a range or on private property with your NFA weapon? ATF would not come out, but the local police or sheriffs could and ask to see your paperwork to verify that you had an NFA registered piece. Happened to me once years ago back in the '90s.

That's the type of scenario I was considering. Someone sees you with an NFA item and sics LE on you. Can local/state LE demand to see a tax stamp? Or more precisely, would you have to show them? Honestly, I probably would just to avoid the hassle.

 

[twobyfour]

That's the type of scenario I was considering. Someone sees you with an NFA item and sics LE on you. Can local/state LE demand to see a tax stamp? Or more precisely, would you have to show them? Honestly, I probably would just to avoid the hassle.

Thats just it though. You are only required to show them proof of the registration, not the item itself. And the Form 1 only states “ATF Officer”. A county, state, or local LEO isn’t even mentioned on the Form 1. Now, polite me wouldn’t mind showing them a copy just to put their minds at ease. But without a warrant they technically have no right to even see or touch what you have. I’m not a dickhead though. I do support my county and local PD. If they started giving me shit I’d probably remind them of the actual laws and probably let them shoot it for shits and giggles. Now the ATF on the other hand; those dudes can go kick rocks for all I care. I would absolutely be hesitant to even speak with those turds without some sort of legal action against me.

 

[twobyfour]

And dont forget the ATF right now assumes that all pistol brace owners are currently in violation of an arbitrary rule (not law) under their definition of “amnesty” period to register or destroy. Look up the definition of amnesty.

 

[esh21167]

Thats just it though. You are only required to show them proof of the registration, not the item itself. And the Form 1 only states “ATF Officer”. A county, state, or local LEO isn’t even mentioned on the Form 1. Now, polite me wouldn’t mind showing them a copy just to put their minds at ease. But without a warrant they technically have no right to even see or touch what you have. I’m not a dickhead though. I do support my county and local PD. If they started giving me shit I’d probably remind them of the actual laws and probably let them shoot it for shits and giggles. Now the ATF on the other hand; those dudes can go kick rocks for all I care. I would absolutely be hesitant to even speak with those turds without some sort of legal action against me.

Completely understand. Our county sheriff is extremely pro 2A. He occasionally give 'seminars' on carry laws and encourages it, repeatedly saying he will never participate in any type of confiscation. But in PA the sheriff's dept's only execute warrants and transport prisoners. Municipal PD's do the daily 'law enforcement' stuff. Lots of variation there.

 

[43m1garand]

If .gov actually cared about constitutional rights, there would not be an ATF or NFA.

A warrant like the warrants issued by the fraudulent FISA court? Or the made up lies given by the FBI to search Trump’s home for “classified documents”? I pretty much don’t trust any federal government employee anymore, and being cautious of local and state LEOs.

 

[twobyfour]

Feds make my balls itch. My county and local cops are fine, at least around here where I live. My wife works with them. Most of them are normal people trying to make a living.

 

[Air Force Crew Chief]

You are entirely correct sir. I'm amazed at how many people I've run across over the decades that believed that ATF could pay you a visit whenever they want once you have acquired an NFA piece. I've been an NFA owner since 1976 and for about twenty years I had an FFL and ten of those I had an SOT stamp. The only time ATF could pay you a visit was for a compliance check at any time as an FFL/SOT holder and after a while that got changed to by appointment only. Initially, I would see them once a year and then it dwindled down to about every three years or so. Only pain in the butt was if you needed to go out of state with your NFA piece. You had to send in a form for approval prior to leaving which meant you better know well in advance of your departure date. Best I recall, it took about two or three weeks. You definitely could not leave on the spur of the moment. Mainly it was to verify that you were not taking your piece to a prohibited state where state law prohibited anyone from having NFA items. Back in the day I remember Hawaii and Michigan were two out of a handful of states that were in that category. I don't know how it is now-a-days. I think Michigan changed.

Well said. The only difference with me would be the ATF compliance checks. I opened my gun shop in 1980, and closed in 1994. During all those years I never once had a ATF Agent stop by for a compliance check. However there was one day I had an ATF and FBI Agent show up at my Gun Shop for a records check, and conduct a interview. They showed up because a hand gun I sold was used in a bank robbery. Other than that, the ATF never came to my shop.

 

[jrsuds]

That's the type of scenario I was considering. Someone sees you with an NFA item and sics LE on you. Can local/state LE demand to see a tax stamp? Or more precisely, would you have to show them? Honestly, I probably would just to avoid the hassle.

Yes and yes.

 

[jrsuds]

Thats just it though. You are only required to show them proof of the registration, not the item itself. And the Form 1 only states “ATF Officer”. A county, state, or local LEO isn’t even mentioned on the Form 1. Now, polite me wouldn’t mind showing them a copy just to put their minds at ease. But without a warrant they technically have no right to even see or touch what you have. I’m not a dickhead though. I do support my county and local PD. If they started giving me shit I’d probably remind them of the actual laws and probably let them shoot it for shits and giggles. Now the ATF on the other hand; those dudes can go kick rocks for all I care. I would absolutely be hesitant to even speak with those turds without some sort of legal action against me.

That's all fine and dandy that the form-1 you elude to does not mention County, State, or local law enforcement except that County, State and local law enforcement can enforce Federal law (ask me how I know....I are former local LEO). Also, there is the State law that one would have to contend with concerning that subject. I would tread very carefully before I told ANY (Federal, State or local) law enforcement to go pound salt without being FULLY informed on what they can and cannot do depending on the circumstances. Don't just read the Federal law----know your State Code!

 

[43m1garand]

I had a FFL for 7 years and had one compliance check by the ATF during that time. I had a home based gun sales not store. It was actually in my apartment I was renting at the time.

 

[Indykid]

Firearm owners are their own worst enemies. How many times have you seen someone complain about a barrel not being over 16 inches or something else that might be slightly infringed upon?

One time at a local range, my daughter was shooting an SAR-3 and I had an SAR-2, both with the Romanian front sight and AK-74 brake. Before they instituted a one round per second max rule, we both inserted a 30 round mag and decided to see who could put the most on target in the shortest time. Guessing one of the other firearm owners thought we had an infringed on fully auto AKM and next thing we know there were two men in uniform watchin us.

Since the SAR-2 had virtually no recoil I looked at the uniformed, held the SAR-2 off shoulder and with my support hand, laid the lower handguard on my open hand. Fired one round at the target to show how little recoil it had and laid it on the table. Then I asked if they would like to try it. One came over, fired one shot and turned to his partner and said "You gotta try this!" The other declined and they both left without saying anything else.

Yes, how quickly people turn on their own because "it's the law" even if the law is unconstitutional? How quickly will your best friend turn you in because you have a pistol brace that was legal yesterday but by declaration is now an infringed upon device?

 

[43m1garand]

Firearm owners are their own worst enemies. How many times have you seen someone complain about a barrel not being over 16 inches or something else that might be slightly infringed upon?

One time at a local range, my daughter was shooting an SAR-3 and I had an SAR-2, both with the Romanian front sight and AK-74 brake. Before they instituted a one round per second max rule, we both inserted a 30 round mag and decided to see who could put the most on target in the shortest time. Guessing one of the other firearm owners thought we had an infringed on fully auto AKM and next thing we know there were two men in uniform watchin us.

Since the SAR-2 had virtually no recoil I looked at the uniformed, held the SAR-2 off shoulder and with my support hand, laid the lower handguard on my open hand. Fired one round at the target to show how little recoil it had and laid it on the table. Then I asked if they would like to try it. One came over, fired one shot and turned to his partner and said "You gotta try this!" The other declined and they both left without saying anything else.

Yes, how quickly people turn on their own because "it's the law" even if the law is unconstitutional? How quickly will your best friend turn you in because you have a pistol brace that was legal yesterday but by declaration is now an infringed upon device?

Exactly. This happened in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. People telling on each other hoping to gain favor with the state.

 

[JimmyC]

That's the type of scenario I was considering. Someone sees you with an NFA item and sics LE on you. Can local/state LE demand to see a tax stamp? Or more precisely, would you have to show them? Honestly, I probably would just to avoid the hassle.

Or, it's a simple thing like you're minding your business, tooling down the road on the way to the range or anywhere else and some overzealous LEA decides you have light out.. OOp's. Now you're explaining to someone way less versed than you are the finer points of the law and..wham. Pays to have a good 2A attorney's number on your smart phone.

 

[JimmyC]

Exactly. This happened in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. People telling on each other hoping to gain favor with the state.

The present admin has their version of Beria.

 

[JimmyC]

Firearm owners are their own worst enemies. How many times have you seen someone complain about a barrel not being over 16 inches or something else that might be slightly infringed upon?

One time at a local range, my daughter was shooting an SAR-3 and I had an SAR-2, both with the Romanian front sight and AK-74 brake. Before they instituted a one round per second max rule, we both inserted a 30 round mag and decided to see who could put the most on target in the shortest time. Guessing one of the other firearm owners thought we had an infringed on fully auto AKM and next thing we know there were two men in uniform watchin us.

Since the SAR-2 had virtually no recoil I looked at the uniformed, held the SAR-2 off shoulder and with my support hand, laid the lower handguard on my open hand. Fired one round at the target to show how little recoil it had and laid it on the table. Then I asked if they would like to try it. One came over, fired one shot and turned to his partner and said "You gotta try this!" The other declined and they both left without saying anything else.

Yes, how quickly people turn on their own because "it's the law" even if the law is unconstitutional? How quickly will your best friend turn you in because you have a pistol brace that was legal yesterday but by declaration is now an infringed upon device?

So much truth in that. I need to say, your daughter is lucky to have you around. And vise versa, I gave my daughter all I could about guns and counter offensive, and in the end, when she least expected it, it wasn't enough. I'll never forgive myself.

 

[esh21167]

Exactly. This happened in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. People telling on each other hoping to gain favor with the state.

Yep. We're well on our way to training 'citizens' to inform on each other.