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AK vs AR ?
those inaccurate AK47 ? ohh no my friends . more than likely indifferent trigger squeezers . whatever choice you make , dont make it based on any percieved , mechanical accuracy difference . now , nobody is discussing or dissing any ERGONOMIC differences or custom rifles here . please note these are all just RACK GRADE rifles OF THE DAY . they likely all just got examined by a military armorer for suitability for duty . since those days we've learned the simple checks to do for wildshooting AKs that solves the problems 90% of the time .
below are the tests done by C.E.Harris and also with the APG back in the late 80s . i discoverd it in a google years ago and had to clean up the document as all the charts were jamed to the left and rammed together and there were obvious (too me) typo errors . i have secondhand rumor from someone who claims to have been part of these tests , that it was shot off foxhole sandbags and sandbaged prone and that once they got off the sandbags nearly all weapon / accuracy diffs vanished . this shocked the livin shit out of the fellows with stars however , testing was done with EXPERT SHOOTERS , not your average joe and certinly not 3rd world doofuses .
Mr.Harris starts out with :
also , there are many quality AK designs that can do much better than a run of the mill MADDI . the bulgies will group more like the standard M16A1 or AK74 seen below WITH AMMO THEY PREFER :
get FREDS "GUIDE TO BECOMEING A RIFLEMAN" . best few bucks you'll ever spend . it got me out of the RIFLE RUT where i was shooting for years without seeing any meaningful improvement . i'm not selling for fred , dont even know him , dont even LIKE the fella from what i read but , his guide will work for ya http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifles.asp
nice free article on "common shooting errors" also .
believe me , if you can shoot the 25M AQT well , your well on the way to doing it for real .
the rest of the paper goes like this :
this is important to understand and is the reason why many have trouble hitting with the BIG BLOCKY AK SITES . they are made for a 6 O'clock hold on the target , even a LIGHTGAP 6 O'clock hold if you will . not a "CUT THE CLOCK IN HALF " hold (except on -1- and -2-) . after years of fooling with these things , there is the implication of simple PROPAGANDA IN OPEN SOVIET LITERATURE that C.E.Harris unwhittingly re-tells here with :
more on this latter .
those inaccurate AK47 ? ohh no my friends . more than likely indifferent trigger squeezers . whatever choice you make , dont make it based on any percieved , mechanical accuracy difference . now , nobody is discussing or dissing any ERGONOMIC differences or custom rifles here . please note these are all just RACK GRADE rifles OF THE DAY . they likely all just got examined by a military armorer for suitability for duty . since those days we've learned the simple checks to do for wildshooting AKs that solves the problems 90% of the time .
below are the tests done by C.E.Harris and also with the APG back in the late 80s . i discoverd it in a google years ago and had to clean up the document as all the charts were jamed to the left and rammed together and there were obvious (too me) typo errors . i have secondhand rumor from someone who claims to have been part of these tests , that it was shot off foxhole sandbags and sandbaged prone and that once they got off the sandbags nearly all weapon / accuracy diffs vanished . this shocked the livin shit out of the fellows with stars however , testing was done with EXPERT SHOOTERS , not your average joe and certinly not 3rd world doofuses .
Mr.Harris starts out with :
if he had only read his own article , he woulda learned :I got frustrated with the AK as accuracy of these seems to be generally poor, but the SKS is more reasonable, and is a real bargain these days. It seems the best an AK will do is about 5-6 moa, and the SKS with good ammo will do 3-4, sometimes better.
while LAPUA is fine ammo , this HINTS at what we discoverd LATER about these commie guns over the decades , that ALL THESE WEAPONS are ammunition/accuracy sensitive . WHY USE AMMO THAT GIVES WIDE GROUPS IN YOUR WEAPON IF YOU DONT HAVE TO ? buy up a box or 2 of what is readily available and try them all out first !!!Previous Test of USSR SKS carbine serial no. 641991 by CEH and JBR, March, 1983, average of five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yds.
[email protected]'_ Smallest__ Largest__ Average
USSR PS____ 2297_____ 7.50____ 12.87____ 10.59
60-K (1950) 31 Sd 10-shot tgts. This USSR PS test shows good agreement with other firings of SKS rifles of 1/30/88, which included this one. Note influence of ammunition quality below:
Lapua Ball__ 2370_____ 3.31_____ 7.50_____ 5.94 (Berdan) Better than typical SKS with PS Ball.
CEH FIRINGS OF AKM FOR COMPARISON WITH SKS
AKM Factory 66
#305163________________ 17.25_________ 32x40 (rifle condit. excellent) PRC 101-71 PS Ball shot at 200 yds., typical for AKM and AK47.
Previous CEH test of Maadi AKM imported by Steyr for NRA, March, 1983. Average of Five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yards.
[email protected]'_ Smallest__ Largest__ Average
Lapua Ball___ 2379____ 7.20_____ 9.60_____ 8.66 (Berdan) 12 Sd This performance is better than expected of PS Ball in average AKM and AK47, attributable to better quality of Lapua ammunition. Note ammunition comparison with SKS above, refiring the same rifle in Jan., 1988, compared to 1983 results.
also , there are many quality AK designs that can do much better than a run of the mill MADDI . the bulgies will group more like the standard M16A1 or AK74 seen below WITH AMMO THEY PREFER :
the real differance in weapons accuracy ? go look in the mirror are you an EXPERT SHOOTER ? HOW CAN YOU TELL ? HOW IS IT MEASURED?TYPICAL DISPERSION OF SELECTED SOVIET AND U.S. RIFLES Approximate Extreme Spread for 10-Shot Groups, Estimated from Measured Radial Standard Deviations, (assuming MR as .9xRSd and ES as 3xMR) NRA Master gunners in favorable conditions adapted from U.S. Army APG data, AMSAA Technical Report No. 440 , May 1987.
__________7.62x39___ 5.45x39___ 5.56x45___ 5.56x45
__________USSR PS__ USSR PS__ US M193__ US M855
RANGE: ____AK-47____ AK-74____ M16A1____ M16A2
(metres)
100________ 4.8_______ 3.5_______ 2.7________ 2.7
200________ 9.6_______ 7.0_______ 5.5________ 5.5
300_______ 14.4______ 10.5_______ 8.9________ 8.6
400_______ 19.6______ 14.9______ 12.8_______ 11.9
500_______ 25.0______ 19.6______ 17.6_______ 16.0
600_______ 30.6______ 25.5______ 23.0_______ 20.4
DOCTRINAL BATTLE-SIGHT RANGE(metres)
__________ 300_______ 400*______ 250_______ 300
(*BSZ=400M not 450M)
get FREDS "GUIDE TO BECOMEING A RIFLEMAN" . best few bucks you'll ever spend . it got me out of the RIFLE RUT where i was shooting for years without seeing any meaningful improvement . i'm not selling for fred , dont even know him , dont even LIKE the fella from what i read but , his guide will work for ya http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifles.asp
nice free article on "common shooting errors" also .
believe me , if you can shoot the 25M AQT well , your well on the way to doing it for real .
the rest of the paper goes like this :
note my bold type .TRAINING AND DOCTRINE ON INFANTRY RIFLE EFFECTIVENESS
U.S. doctrine is that the M16 rifle be carried habitually with the sights set to the BSR unless there is a need to set the sights for some other range and there is time to do so. American GI's are taught to aim at the center of mass of the visible target at all times, which centers the densest portion of the round to round shot dispersion in the center of the target, to maximize hit probability. Soviet doctrine is to use a bottom of target point of aim with the sights set at the BSR at ranges up to 300 metres, and to set the sights for the estimated range at longer distances. In operational situations the type and magnitude of other system errors cancel any effect of wind deflection upon hit probability for the average soldier. The intrinsic single-shot round-to-round dispersion of the AK47 is larger than the newer AK74, but both Soviet rifles have a larger intrinsic RRD than either the M16A1 or M16A2. These differences are not meaningful in most operational combat situations because stress is the great equalizer. If the shooter's error approaches the worst hitting performance seen in peacetime field experiments the differences in being able to hit an "E" silhouette target caused by differences in inherent weapon accuracy are wiped out. If effective range is gaged by single-shot hitting performance of average soldiers in combat situations, the AK47, AK74, M16A1 and M16A2 have almost no difference in performance. In US Army testing of the AK-74 rifle it was found that the time to hit was the same for the AK-74 and M16A1 for target exposure times of 2-3.5 seconds, but that the muzzle-break-compensator of the AK-74 was an aid to improving hit probability at close-range targets with burst fire. The third round in a burst from the M16 seldom if ever hits anything and is nothing more than a waste of ammunition. Personnel should be taught to use two-round "double-taps" for close range engagements within 50 yds. Beyond 50 yards rapid semiautomatic fire is far more effective than any type of automatic fire, in being able to obtain hits, as well as in conserving ammunition.
this is important to understand and is the reason why many have trouble hitting with the BIG BLOCKY AK SITES . they are made for a 6 O'clock hold on the target , even a LIGHTGAP 6 O'clock hold if you will . not a "CUT THE CLOCK IN HALF " hold (except on -1- and -2-) . after years of fooling with these things , there is the implication of simple PROPAGANDA IN OPEN SOVIET LITERATURE that C.E.Harris unwhittingly re-tells here with :
Soviet doctrine is to use a bottom of target point of aim with the sights set at the BSR at ranges up to 300 metres, and to set the sights for the estimated range at longer distances.
more on this latter .