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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
AK vs AR ?

those inaccurate AK47 ? ohh no my friends . more than likely indifferent trigger squeezers . whatever choice you make , dont make it based on any percieved , mechanical accuracy difference . now , nobody is discussing or dissing any ERGONOMIC differences or custom rifles here . please note these are all just RACK GRADE rifles OF THE DAY . they likely all just got examined by a military armorer for suitability for duty . since those days we've learned the simple checks to do for wildshooting AKs that solves the problems 90% of the time .

below are the tests done by C.E.Harris and also with the APG back in the late 80s . i discoverd it in a google years ago and had to clean up the document as all the charts were jamed to the left and rammed together and there were obvious (too me) typo errors . i have secondhand rumor from someone who claims to have been part of these tests , that it was shot off foxhole sandbags and sandbaged prone and that once they got off the sandbags nearly all weapon / accuracy diffs vanished . this shocked the livin shit out of the fellows with stars however , testing was done with EXPERT SHOOTERS , not your average joe and certinly not 3rd world doofuses .

Mr.Harris starts out with :

I got frustrated with the AK as accuracy of these seems to be generally poor, but the SKS is more reasonable, and is a real bargain these days. It seems the best an AK will do is about 5-6 moa, and the SKS with good ammo will do 3-4, sometimes better.
if he had only read his own article , he woulda learned :

Previous Test of USSR SKS carbine serial no. 641991 by CEH and JBR, March, 1983, average of five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yds.
[email protected]'_ Smallest__ Largest__ Average
USSR PS____ 2297_____ 7.50____ 12.87____ 10.59
60-K (1950) 31 Sd 10-shot tgts. This USSR PS test shows good agreement with other firings of SKS rifles of 1/30/88, which included this one. Note influence of ammunition quality below:
Lapua Ball__ 2370_____ 3.31_____ 7.50_____ 5.94 (Berdan) Better than typical SKS with PS Ball.

CEH FIRINGS OF AKM FOR COMPARISON WITH SKS
AKM Factory 66
#305163________________ 17.25_________ 32x40 (rifle condit. excellent) PRC 101-71 PS Ball shot at 200 yds., typical for AKM and AK47.
Previous CEH test of Maadi AKM imported by Steyr for NRA, March, 1983. Average of Five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yards.
[email protected]'_ Smallest__ Largest__ Average
Lapua Ball___ 2379____ 7.20_____ 9.60_____ 8.66 (Berdan) 12 Sd This performance is better than expected of PS Ball in average AKM and AK47, attributable to better quality of Lapua ammunition. Note ammunition comparison with SKS above, refiring the same rifle in Jan., 1988, compared to 1983 results.
while LAPUA is fine ammo , this HINTS at what we discoverd LATER about these commie guns over the decades , that ALL THESE WEAPONS are ammunition/accuracy sensitive . WHY USE AMMO THAT GIVES WIDE GROUPS IN YOUR WEAPON IF YOU DONT HAVE TO ? buy up a box or 2 of what is readily available and try them all out first !!!

also , there are many quality AK designs that can do much better than a run of the mill MADDI . the bulgies will group more like the standard M16A1 or AK74 seen below WITH AMMO THEY PREFER :
TYPICAL DISPERSION OF SELECTED SOVIET AND U.S. RIFLES Approximate Extreme Spread for 10-Shot Groups, Estimated from Measured Radial Standard Deviations, (assuming MR as .9xRSd and ES as 3xMR) NRA Master gunners in favorable conditions adapted from U.S. Army APG data, AMSAA Technical Report No. 440 , May 1987.
__________7.62x39___ 5.45x39___ 5.56x45___ 5.56x45
__________USSR PS__ USSR PS__ US M193__ US M855
RANGE: ____AK-47____ AK-74____ M16A1____ M16A2
(metres)
100________ 4.8_______ 3.5_______ 2.7________ 2.7
200________ 9.6_______ 7.0_______ 5.5________ 5.5
300_______ 14.4______ 10.5_______ 8.9________ 8.6
400_______ 19.6______ 14.9______ 12.8_______ 11.9
500_______ 25.0______ 19.6______ 17.6_______ 16.0
600_______ 30.6______ 25.5______ 23.0_______ 20.4
DOCTRINAL BATTLE-SIGHT RANGE(metres)
__________ 300_______ 400*______ 250_______ 300
(*BSZ=400M not 450M)
the real differance in weapons accuracy ? go look in the mirror are you an EXPERT SHOOTER ? HOW CAN YOU TELL ? HOW IS IT MEASURED?

get FREDS "GUIDE TO BECOMEING A RIFLEMAN" . best few bucks you'll ever spend . it got me out of the RIFLE RUT where i was shooting for years without seeing any meaningful improvement . i'm not selling for fred , dont even know him , dont even LIKE the fella from what i read but , his guide will work for ya http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifles.asp

nice free article on "common shooting errors" also .

believe me , if you can shoot the 25M AQT well , your well on the way to doing it for real .

the rest of the paper goes like this :
TRAINING AND DOCTRINE ON INFANTRY RIFLE EFFECTIVENESS

U.S. doctrine is that the M16 rifle be carried habitually with the sights set to the BSR unless there is a need to set the sights for some other range and there is time to do so. American GI's are taught to aim at the center of mass of the visible target at all times, which centers the densest portion of the round to round shot dispersion in the center of the target, to maximize hit probability. Soviet doctrine is to use a bottom of target point of aim with the sights set at the BSR at ranges up to 300 metres, and to set the sights for the estimated range at longer distances. In operational situations the type and magnitude of other system errors cancel any effect of wind deflection upon hit probability for the average soldier. The intrinsic single-shot round-to-round dispersion of the AK47 is larger than the newer AK74, but both Soviet rifles have a larger intrinsic RRD than either the M16A1 or M16A2. These differences are not meaningful in most operational combat situations because stress is the great equalizer. If the shooter's error approaches the worst hitting performance seen in peacetime field experiments the differences in being able to hit an "E" silhouette target caused by differences in inherent weapon accuracy are wiped out. If effective range is gaged by single-shot hitting performance of average soldiers in combat situations, the AK47, AK74, M16A1 and M16A2 have almost no difference in performance. In US Army testing of the AK-74 rifle it was found that the time to hit was the same for the AK-74 and M16A1 for target exposure times of 2-3.5 seconds, but that the muzzle-break-compensator of the AK-74 was an aid to improving hit probability at close-range targets with burst fire. The third round in a burst from the M16 seldom if ever hits anything and is nothing more than a waste of ammunition. Personnel should be taught to use two-round "double-taps" for close range engagements within 50 yds. Beyond 50 yards rapid semiautomatic fire is far more effective than any type of automatic fire, in being able to obtain hits, as well as in conserving ammunition.
note my bold type .

this is important to understand and is the reason why many have trouble hitting with the BIG BLOCKY AK SITES . they are made for a 6 O'clock hold on the target , even a LIGHTGAP 6 O'clock hold if you will . not a "CUT THE CLOCK IN HALF " hold (except on -1- and -2-) . after years of fooling with these things , there is the implication of simple PROPAGANDA IN OPEN SOVIET LITERATURE that C.E.Harris unwhittingly re-tells here with :
Soviet doctrine is to use a bottom of target point of aim with the sights set at the BSR at ranges up to 300 metres, and to set the sights for the estimated range at longer distances.

more on this latter .
 

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IMHO the difference in practical accuracy of these weapons systems when the SHTF (when someone's shooting back) is zero for the average person.I'm sure that there are people who are cool enough to carfully sight a rifle when a swarm of bullets are passing overhead (or by their ears) but I never met one during my "all expenses paid" trips to SEA.
 

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Yeah man, Iused to argue with guys in the marines all the time about whats a better weapon. They would be like "In a combat situation, I would be taking well aimed shots." And I would just tell em"Yeah, right, well after your fisrt firefight come find me and tellme if you were taking well aimed shots" After gettin shot at a couple of times, they changed thier tune about accuracy being most important.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
you are what you practice gen-tel-men !

you know , some people get an AK in there hands and the false machizmo grows . they throw any'ole ammo in it "CUZ ITS ALL THE SAME (belch) ", dont site it in , lurch at the trigger like a "PERSON WHO WEARS LONG TOWELS ON THEIR HEADS WHILE LIVING IN SANDY AREAS WITH LARGE SHITFILLED CRITTERS " and then start layin down some smak about " your not supposta aim the thing " " cant hit nuthin past 150 yards anyway , not fer akk-ur-racy , the bullets go wild after that " :goof:
 

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Well, I suppose that I'll get flamed for this but the engineering that went into the AR-15/M-16 design makes it a platform that has the greater potential for mechanical accuracy.

The piston and the bolt carrier on an AK immediately begin to reciprocate as one relatively large mass immediately upon gas expansion into the gas tube and against the piston. In the AR, the gas must travel a much further way down the gas tube to deliver the direct impingment impulse to the bolt carrier (which is also lighter.) The AK carrier is then halted in its rearward travel typically by impacting the rear of the receiver (not always the case) but the AR carrier has a highly effective recoil spring and buffer system directly inline with the carrier.

The clearances and tolerances of the AR are tighter (esp. the chamber area), the locking lugs lock directly into the barrel extension versus the trunnion on an AK and the iron sights on the AR-15A2 are probably the finest on any military rifle. The barrel can be easily free floated and overall quality control tends to be higher.

For all of these same reasons the AR tends to be more finnicky and require much more maintenance than the AK to run reliably.

AK's are capable of quite good accuracy (esp. the 5.56mm VEPR) but they are mechanically resticted in how accurate they can become. The AR and AK have the same practical accuracy out to about 150m, but beyond that the AR begins to pull ahead rather drastically. Optics can make quite a difference on the AK platform though.

AK's are more accurate than they're given credit for; AR's are more reliable than they're given credit for.
 

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Not entirely true. Yes the huge gas piston movement affects accuracy, as with an SKS and AK with the same ammo and same barrel length the SKS wins out because of its "short stroke" recoil system. The Chinese knew this, which is why they made a hybrid, an SKS with an AK style rotating bolt.

HOWEVER, there are differences within the system that affect accuracy. A PSL can outshoot the AR-15 with good ammo, yet it has the same clunky gas piston and same stamped reciever that buckles under firing.

If the gas piston is loose on an AK, the rifle is less accurate. If the cleaning rod is left in the AK, it is usually less accurate. Things like these affect barrel harmonics and cause accuracy troubles.

Also, pre-ban AKs are usually more accurate, because they have all original factory parts and no US made things thrown in them. My Polytech trigger, also, is smoother than the Tapco G2 trigger group.

I am not an accuracy genius, but I know that there are alot of things affecting accuracy. I do spray with my Polytech, safely, because it is fun and makes a cool fireball. I also know how to aim and have 40 rounds of Remington 7.62x39mm that I will use to test the accuracy of the Polytech. I also have Winchester 123gr. SP, Silver Bear nipple point, Saspan, Wolf, Golden Tiger, and have accsess to Barnaul. I will test the accuracy on my rifle, and I know it shoots good with regular 122gr. FMJ Wolf.

I do not claim the infantry AK to be a sniper rifle, I know the AR-15 has greater accuracy potential, but I also know there are individual changes that affect accuracy that are changeable.
 

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Thekatar said:
Well, I suppose that I'll get flamed for this but the engineering that went into the AR-15/M-16 design makes it a platform that has the greater potential for mechanical accuracy.

The piston and the bolt carrier on an AK immediately begin to reciprocate as one relatively large mass immediately upon gas expansion into the gas tube and against the piston. In the AR, the gas must travel a much further way down the gas tube to deliver the direct impingment impulse to the bolt carrier (which is also lighter.) The AK carrier is then halted in its rearward travel typically by impacting the rear of the receiver (not always the case) but the AR carrier has a highly effective recoil spring and buffer system directly inline with the carrier.

The clearances and tolerances of the AR are tighter (esp. the chamber area), the locking lugs lock directly into the barrel extension versus the trunnion on an AK and the iron sights on the AR-15A2 are probably the finest on any military rifle. The barrel can be easily free floated and overall quality control tends to be higher.

For all of these same reasons the AR tends to be more finnicky and require much more maintenance than the AK to run reliably.

AK's are capable of quite good accuracy (esp. the 5.56mm VEPR) but they are mechanically resticted in how accurate they can become. The AR and AK have the same practical accuracy out to about 150m, but beyond that the AR begins to pull ahead rather drastically. Optics can make quite a difference on the AK platform though.

AK's are more accurate than they're given credit for; AR's are more reliable than they're given credit for.
Well said. + 1 ... WD
 

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All stated above is correct..but however....The Russians quickly realised that most infantry engagements happen <100 meters and this is what the AK is built for. Close to medium range. Sure the A2 sights are made for shots out to 800 meters, but only the USMC demanded that this was an option on the M16A2. The USMC being proud on the fact that every Marine qualifies as a marksman being able to qualify with the M16 at these ranges. This, and the fact that the M16 mechanically is more accurate from the bench has nothing to do with the use of both weapons in practical situations.

The AK got a poor accuracy reputation partly because of the use of irregular forces with poor markmanship training. A trained shooter with a quality made AK sure can suprise many a cynic. Add to that a quality trigger system and an optical sight and it's game on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
so , lets all ignor the REAL STUDIES and go with our FEELINGs huh .

alrightythen . enjoy yourselves :lol:
 

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so , lets all ignor the REAL STUDIES and go with our FEELINGs huh .
They did when the AR15 was introduced....from there on out there should be no suprises :wink: :wink: :wink:
 

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I'd be real interested in knowing if the people who did the "real studies" did them under fire - or in the saftey of their studies?

Maybe we should ask how many extraordinarily cool heads there are on this board. Everyone who has delivered "well aimed fire " on an adversary engaged in shooting at you please stand up!
 

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I am gonna put on my butt armor here cuz I know what is coming,

Range test, (Informal)

My doublestar 1:9 twist Car 15 iron sights 75 yards out performed,

My,

Romy G

AMD-65

Maadi RML.

Groups with the AR were significantly tighter.

With Mil spec type ammo

Now which rifle would I take in a SHTF situation,

Prolly my Maadi or My Romy G, maybe neither maybe my Cetme.

I'm kinda old school, I like the .30 cal.
 

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And Wolf or Barnaul was in the AKs, right? And the AR got... SS109?

US military "mil spec" ammo beats the pants off of Wolf and that's a fact.

To up the accuracy of your AK... well read Yoda's posts because he mentions a ton of different suppliers...

I bet my AK can outshoot your AR. It's a PSL, and I have a ton of 7N1 for it on the way. :twisted:
 
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