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There are a few reliable 7.62x39mm hollow points and soft points that have been proven to penetrate 12 to 15 in gelatin with large cavities/fragmentation/expansion, as well as take down 200 lb + hogs & deer without exit wounds. I.e. overpenetration should be less than that of a handgun's FMJ or 00 buckshot shotgun, and cavity size is between that of a handgun and buckshot.

There are many 9mm hollow points that have even less penetration, mostly around 12-13" and the cavity roughly half the size with no fragmentation. At the same time, handgun ammo doesn't always put down the bad guy, even though the carbine barrel adds another ~200 fps.

My 9mm CX4 is 29" overall length, and my AK is standard 34" or so. My Shotgun is too long, 38", for the tight corners in my house. I have 2-3 bottlenecked tight corners between the bedroom and the front and back door.
 

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Kilryth said:
There are a few reliable 7.62x39mm hollow points and soft points that have been proven to penetrate 12 to 15 in gelatin with large cavities/fragmentation/expansion, as well as take down 200 lb + hogs & deer without exit wounds. I.e. overpenetration should be less than that of a handgun's FMJ or 00 buckshot shotgun, and cavity size is between that of a handgun and buckshot.

There are many 9mm hollow points that have even less penetration, mostly around 12-13" and the cavity roughly half the size with no fragmentation. At the same time, handgun ammo doesn't always put down the bad guy, even though the carbine barrel adds another ~200 fps.

My 9mm CX4 is 29" overall length, and my AK is standard 34" or so. My Shotgun is too long, 38", for the tight corners in my house. I have 2-3 bottlenecked tight corners between the bedroom and the front and back door.
We did some basic penetration tests with 7.62X39 HPs. I was surprised at how low the penetration was. This wan't into gelatin, but wet phone books. Don't remember exact numbers. I just don't like the idea of a rifle for HD. Too unwieldy IMO. If Im gonna use something like that, I want it to be a scatter gun so I can have a better chance of hitting my target.

Have you considered the 10mm? You can easily get a 135g HP scooting along at over 1600 fps. Plenty of ass for two-legged critters.
 

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thirdeye said:
Have you considered the 10mm? You can easily get a 135g HP scooting along at over 1600 fps. Plenty of ass for two-legged critters.
Thanks for the support on this one! The CX4's ergonomics and balance feels a lot like an FS2000 - it's actually much quicker for me to shoulder, aim, reload, and wield. It's not much slower to shoulder & aim than drawing a handgun.. except I'm already on target with Eotech sight and a cheekweld. This is my primary reason for liking the 9mm carbine option.. but the expansion & fragmentation of a good 7.62x39mm HP/SP makes me want to become quicker with wielding the AK.
 

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I think either one would be fine. I like to think the average burglar or home invader would turn and run at the sound of gunfire, much less getting hit. Unless you're being targeted by some professional CIA/KGB hitmen, then obviously you'd need the AK. :animak: :mrgreen:
 

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In a House, Or Apartment?

Apartment, 9mm all the way. No need to cap Ms. Wilson sleeping in the apartment next/behind yours.

House, It's a toss up. Both will make someone have a bad day. Which one will depend on your local laws and political climate. Here, my Shotgun resides next to my .45 next to the bed. I live in a house, neighbors are pretty close. I don;t feel an AK would go over too well in my locality being used as a Home defense weapon....Plus, I don't want any stray shots leaving my home.
 

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thirdeye said:
I just don't like the idea of a rifle for HD. Too unwieldy IMO. If Im gonna use something like that, I want it to be a scatter gun so I can have a better chance of hitting my target.
At inside-the-house ranges, your "scattergun" won't be scattering anything. The pellets travel in a tight group for the first 15 to 20 feet (5 - 7 yards), so aiming has to be as precise as with any other gun. This is actually harder to do with a bead sight. If you have ghost rings, you can pull it off, but the "shotgun is better because of the spread" idea is an urban myth promulgated by folks that have never patterned their guns.

With a typical cylinder bore 12 ga with an 18" barrel, at 12 feet, which is a typical across-the-room distance, you'll get a 2 to 3 inch group on average (basically one large hole):



Even at 20 yards/60 feet, which, unless you live in a castle, is way longer than any normal room, you'll only have maybe an 9 - 13 inch spread on average:





Read the whole Box of Truth article here.

joedog
 

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Shotgun, 7.62x39mm rifle, 9mm carbine... who cares unless as stated you are worried about over-penetration. It doesn't matter "which puts him down" because nothing is a guarantee, and you will most likely do what every single self defense class in the U.S. suggests and shoot until the threat is neutralized which makes it a moot point.


If you are the best and fastest with the CX4- by all means, USE IT. If you like it and shoot well with it, that is all anyone should need to hear.
 

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Id say forget the carbine and just use a good pistol. I do have a loaded 1911 and shotgun but I already know the first thing i would grab would be the handgun. If you must go with a carbine go with the pistol caliber, it will get the job done and not sail trough to many walls.

If you are the best and fastest with the CX4- by all means, USE IT. If you like it and shoot well with it, that is all anyone should need to hear.
+1 Thats why i grab for my 1911
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
All good replies, thank you! I will practice with both carbines and see which one I am ultimately more confident with... especially in the dark & wee hours of the morning. The political climate on AK's isn't too bad here in Florida. I've already read two AK home-defense articles from Florida, and neither blew it out of proportion.. aside from calling out the gun by name. I suppose a less popular gun, such as the CX4, may just come off to be another sporting rifle. Either way, this is not as much of a concern for me.

Thanks!
 

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Q-gunner2 said:
Shotgun, 7.62x39mm rifle, 9mm carbine... who cares unless as stated you are worried about over-penetration. It doesn't matter "which puts him down" because nothing is a guarantee, and you will most likely do what every single self defense class in the U.S. suggests and shoot until the threat is neutralized which makes it a moot point.


If you are the best and fastest with the CX4- by all means, USE IT. If you like it and shoot well with it, that is all anyone should need to hear.

^^this.

personally,for inside the home in tight places and around door ways etc.,i prefer a totally reliable pistol with my favorite HD ammo using a modified weaver stance and one that i don't mind being confiscated for possibly several months and possibly coming back rusty,maybe even abused. i have the perfect one for this duty.there's no way i'm handing over my h&ks and walthers to my local semi-unfriendly(to firearms) police. when i carry,i have no choice but to use one of my better pistols.

...but what your using is fine.
 

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joedog said:
thirdeye said:
I just don't like the idea of a rifle for HD. Too unwieldy IMO. If Im gonna use something like that, I want it to be a scatter gun so I can have a better chance of hitting my target.
At inside-the-house ranges, your "scattergun" won't be scattering anything. The pellets travel in a tight group for the first 15 to 20 feet (5 - 7 yards), so aiming has to be as precise as with any other gun. This is actually harder to do with a bead sight. If you have ghost rings, you can pull it off, but the "shotgun is better because of the spread" idea is an urban myth promulgated by folks that have never patterned their guns.

With a typical cylinder bore 12 ga with an 18" barrel, at 12 feet, which is a typical across-the-room distance, you'll get a 2 to 3 inch group on average (basically one large hole):



Even at 20 yards/60 feet, which, unless you live in a castle, is way longer than any normal room, you'll only have maybe an 9 - 13 inch spread on average:





Read the whole Box of Truth article here.

joedog
And how would the 3 inch spread from a "scattergun" compare to the "spread" from a single projectile? Would you choose a 3 inch diameter projectile over a 7.62mm diameter one? I certainly would. 3 inches can mean the difference hitting a major artery or just fatty tissue. And what does the 3 inch spread become when you're using an improved cylinder or no choke at all? I can't believe you put in all that work to try to troll me like that. If you can't convince yourself that a "scattergun" trumps a single projectile, even at close ranges, you need your head examined.
 

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thirdeye said:
And how would the 3 inch spread from a "scattergun" compare to the "spread" from a single projectile? Would you choose a 3 inch diameter projectile over a 7.62mm diameter one? I certainly would. 3 inches can mean the difference hitting a major artery or just fatty tissue.
You either missed my point or were unclear in your post. You said you'd use a shotgun to have a "better chance of hitting my target". That is demonstrably incorrect, as I pointed out - shotguns at close ranges have to be aimed precisely. A miss with a 3 inch projectile is still a miss. You did not say, "do more damage to my target" which would have been correct.

thirdeye said:
And what does the 3 inch spread become when you're using an improved cylinder or no choke at all? I can't believe you put in all that work to try to troll me like that.
Read my post. That IS with a cylinder bore gun. No choke at all.

I'm not trolling, merely correcting an oft repeated urban legend. And it wasn't any work at all. :wink:

joedog
 

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op states,
"My 9mm CX4 is 29" overall length, and my AK is standard 34" or so. My Shotgun is too long, 38", for the tight corners in my house. I have 2-3 bottlenecked tight corners between the bedroom and the front and back door.".



Inside, adrenaline, no hearing protection........ maybe a suppressed Uzi, folding stock, direct on target sight....... If it's gonna be a 9mm. I'm actually serious, but far from an expert.

I can get by with 7.62 as I live in a more remote area.
 

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joedog said:
You either missed my point or were unclear in your post. You said you'd use a shotgun to have a "better chance of hitting my target". That is demonstrably incorrect, as I pointed out - shotguns at close ranges have to be aimed precisely. A miss with a 3 inch projectile is still a miss. You did not say, "do more damage to my target" which would have been correct.
joedog
Nothing incorrect about that statement at all. You do have a better "chance" of hitting your target if the cross-sectional area of your projectile is larger. This should be intuitive, but I guess it isn't, so I will try to demonstrate with a simple sketch.



 

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bamaak said:
op states,
"My 9mm CX4 is 29" overall length, and my AK is standard 34" or so. My Shotgun is too long, 38", for the tight corners in my house. I have 2-3 bottlenecked tight corners between the bedroom and the front and back door.".



Inside, adrenaline, no hearing protection........ maybe a suppressed Uzi, folding stock, direct on target sight....... If it's gonna be a 9mm. I'm actually serious, but far from an expert.

I can get by with 7.62 as I live in a more remote area.

i'm more with that quote... a subgun indoors with heavy slow subsonic ammo...
 

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Hell, if you want, I'll even quantify it for you. What's the cross-sectional area of a typical grown man? I dunno, but most grown men are around 6ft tall and what, 1ft wide on average, lets say. That's 6 square feet. Now what's the area of the 3D sphere that surrounds you and is seven feet away? It's 4*pi*r^2, where r = 7ft. But who in their right mind wouldn't be at least facing the enemy when they shoot? So we can cut that in half at the very least and call it 2*pi*r^2. That gives 290 square feet. So your "chances" of hitting the guy with your small projectile, if you at least face the target and randomly shoot is (6/290)*100 = 2%.

Now let's bring the "scatter" gun into the picture, with it's measly 3 inch group. How does that change things? It increases the bad guys cross sectional area by about 1.5 inches on each side. That's an additional 2 square feet roughly. The new area of the perp is now 8 square feet. So your new "chances" of hitting him are (8/290)*100 = 2.75%! Golly geeze, your "chances" of hitting him increased by 40%!!

UHMAZING.
 

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thirdeye said:
joedog said:
You either missed my point or were unclear in your post. You said you'd use a shotgun to have a "better chance of hitting my target". That is demonstrably incorrect, as I pointed out - shotguns at close ranges have to be aimed precisely. A miss with a 3 inch projectile is still a miss. You did not say, "do more damage to my target" which would have been correct.
joedog
Nothing incorrect about that statement at all. You do have a better "chance" of hitting your target if the cross-sectional area of your projectile is larger. This should be intuitive, but I guess it isn't, so I will try to demonstrate with a simple sketch.



Now I know how The Katar feels. :roll:

joedog
 

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joedog said:
Now I know how The Katar feels. :roll:
joedog
What? Why so butthurt? Becuase you can't argue with solid math? If you can come up with a better argument, I'd be glad to listen. The simple fact is you accused me of being wrong. However, it was you who was wrong. Now that you realize it, you're mad at me. Yaaaaaawwwwn.
 
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