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Discussion Starter #1
this was buried in the SHTF forum so i brought it out for everyone to see .


freerangeYODA said:
howdy all

thanks for the LOG TEST PICS . the uly 8M3 HP is indeed FRAGTASTIC ! never got to test any against materials except by accident (missed water jugs) .

FORTIER has a g man jello block test of the ULY 8M3 in an artical in SNIPERSPARADISE back in 2000 i think . the artical is more about preparing the jello . the pic is MISLABELED as from a HPBT . of course , i and other testers new better and some time later he said so himself in a communication .


last summer , the DOC over at TACTICAL FORUMS posted gelitan test results of Uly HPs .

i and other experimenters doing waterjug testing found massive fragmentation @50M and even out to 100M . had some pics at 50 and 100M from a friend that paraleled my results exactly but they have disapeared . FORTIER got fragmenting in prepared jello and the Doc showed good expansion with his lot of SAPSAN into g man jello. these differances in test results are well within the norm for various lots of ammo .

given the above and its B.C. i would estimate some FLESH expansion out to as far as 250M or 275M but not likely beyond that . the bullets G6 B.C. of about 0.150 is better than all the 762x39 softpoints except for sierras .311" 125gr which fits in better B.C. wise with common M67 FMJ , about 0.165

not only good bullet performance but both old blue stripe box and newer SAPSANboxed was really decent over the chronograph . it rates as VERY FINE AMMO from me :grin: low extr.spr. and nominal velocity .



unfortunatly i dont think we'll see anymore ULYANOVSK ammo here unless they send us some 8M3 hollowpoints loaded in one of the BEAR BRAND AMMO in the future . even their website has been down for quite some time . if you want this kind of performance then you'll probly have to buy up whats left of it . none of the other russian HP bullets come anywhere near to this performance even if most are "good ammo" . the other russian SPs only expand well up close to 50M or so unless you hit bone .

the ULY bullet line - 8M1 'match' nipple , 8M2 FMJ and the 8M3 hollowpoints were unique "improved" bullets . the 1 and 2 have improved performance over standard M67 due to a small airspace tip and not haveing the base indentation common to leadcore M67 . this not only moves the weight ballance point back even farther than M67, insuring RELIABLE EARLY yaw out to its full trajectory but also , airspace migration into the hemisphere trailing impact @~90deg yaw angles dwells the yaw cycle so the bullet is mostly sideways most of the way through instead of the fast flip around once or twice to base forward stability . some of my last tests showed this out too 500M . the 8M1 nipple is more pronounced in this effect with its marginally larger tipspace .

of course everyone is familiar with the old Fackler description of the performance of YUGOSLAVIAN made 762x39M67 HOWEVER , who else but i can and will tell you this is common performance to all such similar bullets as loaded into barnaul proper name brand FMJ , Lapua w/s.409 bullet , US Frankfort Arsenal / LakeCity ammo , WHITE BOXED E.G. ammo with replaced bullet made by STYER and mirades of others with bullets about 0.9" long flatbase with conical or ballish base indentation and 6s calibre , tangent radius nose profile . the US COMPANIES that make consumer ammo (FED,WW,REM) load a slightly different bullet (5s calibre tangent radius nose , ~0.850 long , flat-flat base) that perfoms nearly the same as above if not more like 7.9x33 bullets . how do i know all this for certain ? personally tested them all and many others in water and in direct comparison to published jello tests . this M67 performance trails off as range increases untill by 300M the bullet may have to penetrate 8 inches or more before yaw begins . beyond that yaw not likely unless a large mass is struck .

an 8M2 type FMJ bullet was loaded into the last lot of BrownBear (made by barnaul) FMJ that came in , rather than the usual common M67 bullet in Barnaul name brand box .

the nipple bullet dont expand at all . never did . due to poor QC some early nipple bullets were just full of lead and only acted like M67 FMJs .

these bullets were introduced by Ulyanovsk sometime durring the '97 poduction year . some '97 dated Uly ammo have older HPBT style with plastic base and some have the newer M67 type HP .

KLIMOVSK used the plastic base insert HPBT at least untill '99 date ammo . while not worth much as a hollowpoint , i feel its a more consistant/accurate design than Wolfs HPBT and not prone too some few per thousand haveing powderspace venting or moisture sucking like WOLFs HPBT.

TCW / WOLF has always used the BIG TIPSPACE (about 8mm !) HPBT design which dont do much more than provide 'sporting use' specification . as a FMJBT its an advanced design but as a HPBT its only worth is target shooting and cheap practice . the COPPER HPBT acts pritty much the same . they are weird and unpredictable against flesh , water or materials except that tests against close range sheetmetal show they are consistantly inferior to "everything" else . against some soft woods , dirt and sand they tend to puke out the core threw the tip too look for all the world like a bannana squeezed from the peel . yet , due to their boat tailed B.C. of about G5 0.175 , they retain superior vel/energy to penetrate a freestanding 1/8" mild steel sheet @385M . the M67 under the same conditions is out of steem at 300/325M , the shorter US bullets , 288M .

from Lesjones.com and i think originally DD at AK-47.NET

http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/post ... n4-med.jpg

see the HUGE AIRSPACE WOLF FMJBT in this pic . the HPBT is the same but with a hole in the tip . now you can understand why the HPBT version can vent the powderspace with changes in temp. , barometer and ruff handling/treatment like with the feeding cycle . not all will , just some handfull or more per thousand but the REAL PROSPECT of a squib lodging a bullet in the bore with this ammo after being out in the weather , precludes its use for SHTF . otherwise , its ok for practice .
apon fireing , the core rams up to about the INTERNAL RIDGE to look just like the old , discontinued Klimovsk silver and brown bear FMJs with ~4mm tipspace on its left but , as it leaves the barrel .

next to the wolf on the RIGHT is a common M67 FMJ type bullet as loaded in Barnaul proper name brand boxes . it works/is the same as Yugo M67 , Lapua or a hundred others .

too the right of the Barnaul M67 FMJ is the ULYANOVSK 8M2 improved FMJ and the left of the two old discontinued KLIMOVSK BEAR FMJs (those came wrapped in plain paper , 6boxes to a package) , is the 8M1 MATCH nipple bullet . note their yet smaller airtips and no base indentation like common M67 . the airspace is actully a tiny bit larger than shown for the 8M2 , i think he got carried away with grinding a little . what you cant see in this picture of the nipple bullet is is its reduced base crimp . base dia. = .280" and the crimp is .070" of LOA . like a small rebated boat tail .

all these AIR SPACE TIPS serve as a reservour for core lead to flow into and re-orient the weight distribution during impact . some lead will flow out the base but is unimportant except maybe to ballance . at impact with a wet target , there is almost no de-acceleration g-forces penetrating point first but since the semi-liquid is 1000s times denser than air , it cant continue point first , dispite spinning with a stability factor (1.5 x4 = about a factor of 6) 4 times faster than nessisary from an AK47 or SKS . the airspace also shifts weight ballance further rearward by default so the bullet yaws sooner than its externally identical yet older , common design . approaching 90deg yaw G-forces increase rapidly and core lead flows into the tipspace HEMISPHERE FACEING IMPACT (and sometimes a drop out the base) . this leaves the trailing HEMISPHERE VOID . the bullet continues mostly sideways like a shuttlecock , weight forward . spin is imperfectly converted from axial to radial rotation since the original spin axis has greatly shifted .

indeed , these types of bullets recoverd from longer range water impact tests , although appearing undeformed externally , can not be rolled on a table . the weight is all or mostly in one hemisphere . fileing into the bullet reviels the voided hemisphere .


hows that for a first post ?

:cool:
more notes,

here is the link too pics of the old plasticbase HPBT and others . hurryup and save you the pic before the link goes bellyup !

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uploade ... rSmall.jpg


just yesterday i discoverd an article in a criminalistics journal with doppler radar ballistics of the TCW HPBT .

the B.C. #above = 0.175 G5 is an AVERAGE of all the HPBTs . my original number i calculated by bullet measurements back years ago of the old whitebox TCW HPBT was 0.178 G5 . when i plug in the atmospherics and MV of the doppler radar test too my B.C.# IN THE PROPER G-MODEL , it differs only some few fps out too 1000M ! so , anyone that tells you my work is HIGHLY DUBIOUS , SPECULATIVE or WILDAZZGUESSES is full-o-ignorent shitwads :razz: and deserves a swurlly :flush:

+18fps at 100m
- 9fps at 400m
-9fps at 500m
-4fps at 1000m

the doppler radar from that article of TCW(now wolf) HPBTs gave these G1 AVERAGE BC#s from muzzel out too ;;;


100M = 0.257
200M = 0.281
300M = 0.280
400M = 0.264
500M = 0.258
1000M=0.305

overall average G1 B.C. =0.285


happy to answer any questions or fill in details .
 

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Discussion Starter #3
howdy ! your even 'on topic' :smile:

NO . the Barnaul HP and SP are both CLOSED BASE/OPEN TIP jackets . so is the GoldenTiger SP .

the Barnaul FMJ is a standard OPEN BASE/CLOSED TIP M67 with conical base indent like shown in the first pic-link above .

havent tested the Barnaul HP . ? . big questionmark .

tested the barnaul SP and got over-expansion @50M . however, even running a warm 2375fps/16"B/MV @100M it only mashed the tip from 0.114" rounded meplat too .200" flat tip and punched straight threw . in any event it looses its jacket if it expands .

Chinese 762x39SPs acted the same way as the Barnaul above .






.
 

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Discussion Starter #4


found a bunch like this on the 400M backstop after paper target shooting
with these Wolf HPs at targets tacked to a heavy wood pallet .

is that some strange shit or what ?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
normally , holes and dents in sheet metal arnt all that interesting , save , maybe a few .

the 1/8" (3.17mm or 10ga) automotive grade , mild steel sheets shown below were shot with a variety of 762x39 FMJ , HPs and SPs . they were stacked , 1st / 2nd / 3rd shown left to right , with 1.5" thick styrofoam inbetween , at 21ft. (bottom most holes) and 50M (upper holes) .

note #8 in the lowest leftmost corner and G smack in the middle . yup , you guessed it , Wolf HPs . the 2nd sheet was bent badly by #8 showing lead splash and on the 3rd only splash . its the ONLY load that acts like this .

 

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Discussion Starter #6
here are some HPs to compare , L to R ,

Ulyanovsk 8M3 HP .876" long = BC .150 G6

Wolf Copper HPBT w/large tip space .990" long = BC .172 G5

generic HPBT with plastic base insert found in early Uly and Klimovsk HP ammo , ~1.005" long = BC .175 G5

Wolf bi-metal HPBTs w/large tip space ~1.030" long = .178 G5

 

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Discussion Starter #7
here are some of the boxes that the russian HP w/plastic insert came in .

used in Klimovsk HP ammo from 93 untill they closed in 2002 (?) and Ulyanovsk HP from 93 untill 97 .






recovered fragments were fired into wet paper sometime back around '95 just after the temporary ammo ban . normally , these bullets do not expand or fragment except up close but i now know that the particular headstamp (3 over 94 blackened color primer) ammo tested was clocking around 2600fps MV from a 20.5"barrel .

the same rounds fired from a shorter paratrooper penetrated a 3ft. stack of wet paper , straight threw with only some disruption , and hit the backstop .



 

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Discussion Starter #8
5thShock said:
God. I love this stuff. Thank you.
Is the Barnaul (Barnaul box) HP the same as the Barnaul FMJ save for the point? The Barnaul webpage for their sporting ammunition gives the 7.62x39 HP the same dispersion numbers as their 5.56 and .308. http://www.barnaulammunition.com/sporthunting.htm
i just examined the hollowpoint from BrownBear boxed Barnaul like SG is selling and it seems to be , well , something different . as far as i know , nobody has SUCCESFULLY tested this HP although i know sombody who tryed but never recoverd a bullet .

its an openbase HP w/no core indent . its so similar to the ULY 8M3 , i can only hope

:confused:

since my back is healing nicely i may venture out to the shead , fire up the grinder and section this growing backlog of bullets .
 

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Discussion Starter #10
3=Ulyanovsk

they used the 8HP bullet shown above w/plastic base insert untill mid year 97 ammo . all this is headstamped 3 over ' two digit date' .

then in midyear 97 they switched to a 3 element headstamp . this ammo can have either the 8HP bullet or the improved 8M- series bullets .

still in 97 year production , they went to the dateless 2element headstamp we see untill today . all this ammo is loaded with the improved bullets .

the 'old' style ammo is pritty good , the 8HP bullet consistant and accurate but dosent normally expand , unless its going near 2600fps MV that is , like the load shown in the pics above was .
 

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golden tiger

Hi Yoda, can I use Golden Tiger 7.62x39 for SHTF ammo?
"see the HUGE AIRSPACE WOLF FMJBT in this pic . the HPBT is the same but with a hole in the tip . now you can understand why the HPBT version can vent the powderspace with changes in temp. , barometer and ruff handling/treatment like with the feeding cycle . not all will , just some handfull or more per thousand but the REAL PROSPECT of a squib lodging a bullet in the bore with this ammo after being out in the weather , precludes its use for SHTF ."
 

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Discussion Starter #13
its only the HOLLOWPOINT Wolf or G-Tiger i dont recommend be kept because this particular bullet design can vent through the HP . venting can go in or out . this only matters if the ammo spends weeks/months in the field .

also , this pequliar bullet often does weird shit against cover . sometimes acting like FMJ , sometimes giving the least penetration of any .

otherwise its good ammo with a trajectory close to original FMJBT too 400/500m .

shoot it up for practice .

none of the other hollowpoints have this issue .
 
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