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Have the Russians changed the bullet since the study, do they have other variations in regular service?

How does this compare to various 7.62x39 bullets?
 

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IEDmagnet said:
Have the Russians changed the bullet since the study, do they have other variations in regular service?

How does this compare to various 7.62x39 bullets?
Russia has designed other 5.45mm loads. Like the 7N10 56 gr enhanced penetration round and 7N22 57 gr armor piercing load.

These loads were developed after Russia's time in Chechnya. Where urban fighting is always happening and with heavily forested areas. Russian Spetsnaz are using AKM's, because of the 7.62x39's ability to penetrate the buildings and other barriers found in the urban areas.

Here's a link to Russia fighting in Chechnya and the use of AKM's. http://www.defence.gov.au/army/lwsc/AbstractsOnline/AAJournal/2004_S/AAJ_Dec_03_Insights_Andrews.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #4
IEDmagnet said:
Have the Russians changed the bullet since the study, do they have other variations in regular service?

How does this compare to various 7.62x39 bullets?
thats exactly what will be discussed . first the commercial ammo in the US and then the russkie stuff , which are all variations of AP .
 

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Discussion Starter #5

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I've read Fackler's report (quickly) and will try to re-read it thoroughly soon.

What is the correlation between terminal ballistics results from swine to man?
Were similar experiments done to justify the switch to 5.56 x 45?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
CommoMan said:
What is the correlation between terminal ballistics results from swine to man?
farm raised swine are very similar to humans as to muscle , bone and organ density(s) and penetration thicknesses . living flesh being the best direct comparison .

these test were conducted for the military to understand the wounding potential of and formulate medical plans for , dealing with the new soviet 5.45x39mm . the cold war was still on then you know ...

please note these tests were done with military steelcore ammo ...

CommoMan said:
Were similar experiments done to justify the switch to 5.56 x 45?
no . they shot watermelons on Stoners farm after a cookout . but , they had a damned good time ! the mechanisms of rifle bullet wounds were still not well understood in the 50s/60s .
 

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Looking forward to that one master Yoda...Have pretty much read the stuff on the standard 5,45 mil rounds. Would be very interesting to put the commercial stuff on the bench.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
guess MY pics are gonna be a while yet . i thought i'd be doing them already but , no . and i lost the neat russian language website with the illustrated AP bullets . i'll find it .

well , the commercial FMJBTs

ok now , having seen the internals of sectioned bullets and the x-rays of the steelcore military rounds recoverd from jello , note the WHITE in the x-ray shows SPACE . the dark , LEAD or STEEL .

now , take away the steelcore , which is stiff and cannot flow and replace it with soft lead . what do you think happens to the WHOLE leadcore on impact with water , swinesflesh or jello now ?

because the lead HAS SOMEWHERE TO FLOW INTO , it can and will . unlike a normal 'unitized' bullet that has to bend the whole bullet , jacket and all , the SPACE gives the lead a place go besides just squeezing out the base . i dont think lead is subject to any fluid compression at these energy levels .

BUT , its the MIGRATION OF THE SPACE that causes these commercial , leadcore FMJBTs to STAY SIDEWAYS AT THE FIRST 90DEG. YAW CYCLE .

just like normal 'unitized' bullets that try to turn (yaw) to base (weight) forward stablized flight through a semi-fluid media , the improved tipspace bullets ALSO turns to weight forward flight but , as that occurs , nearing 90DEG. through (media) , forces build from almost nothing pointfirst to enough force to cause a large temporary cavity in the media(s) . this represents decelleration or G-Forces , enough to cause the lead to flow into the jacket hemisphere faceing impact , just like with the 7N6 bullets in the x-ray

and ,

the SPACE to flow into the hemisphere AWAY from 90DEG. impact .

the bullet now continues , weight forward , just like previous generations of spitzer rifle bullets only, for these IMPROVED' types , weight forward now means SIDEWAYS . the spin now converts from AXLE to RADIAL . the original center of rotation the bullet was spinning on is gone . the spin has to go somewhere so original twist rate being expressed as , a prop through water .

of course , in a PERFECTLY UNIFORM media you get PERFECTLY UNIFORM sideways RESULTS . striking dense wood , hard packed dirt or bone pointfirst causes the core to ram up into the tip , making a TIP HEAVY bullet . if there is LITTLE OR NO RESISTANCE to forward motion at the 90DEG. yaw angle , no lead flow can take place . it continues around to BASE FIRST stability . this could happen traversing the upper chest through a lung .

at whatever angle the bullet finds resistance sufficient to flow its core at sufficiant impact , thats how the lead will orient within the jacket . but for the most part it means PROFILE PENETRATION of flesh .

these bullets , the 5.45x39 Wolf and Barnaul FMJBTs and the 762x39 Wolf and GoldenTiger FMJBTs are 90DEG by 4.5" penetration depth in water @100M . 90DEG by 3.5" penetration depth at 500M . they will begin the yaw cycle(s) penetrating only enough water to IMMERSE themselves in , about an inch and a half or so .

the ULYANOVSK 8m1 nipple and 8M2 FMJFB , along with the GoldenTiger 5.45x39 FMJ , have more of an EXTENDED DWELL TIME while sideways rather than perfect PROFILE PENETRATION . SLOW YAW . the effect is nearly the same as the others but there is less SPACE to migrate .

WATER compares 1 to 1 for FMJ DEPTH OF PENETRATION TO 90DEG YAW with 10% gelitan . it compares 1 to 1 for all the famous/infamous FMJ spitzer bullets such as 303 MK7 , 762x51 M80 , 762x39 M43 and M67 , etc.




no applause please , just throw flowers :bow:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
silence :confused:

there's more to go . any questions so far ?

i will eventully be able to post pics but , untill then , you dont have to take my word for any of this , my tests are REPETABLE BY ANYONE and that is the basis of science . unless of course , you are like a here-to-fore INFAMOUS and now absent web personality that thinks i'm trying to TRICK you into believing things and has the responsibility to protect others from being infected by my info :roll:

ive also been accused of tricking people into believing that MATH is used to design or describe bullets :eek:

and of course the biggest cut of all , that the things i do are like "magazine articles" , "which , we all know are not worth asswipe" . surely , anyone who reads my chicken-peck typing can proclaim me innocent of journalizm school or even typeing 101 ... :lol:

really folks , i'm just a little fellow who is extra curious and truely likes / enjoys doing this stuff .
 

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Read it, read it again....clear as a whistle.

Gonna try some 60 gr. FMJ against some bowling pins hanging tonight. First testing on "hard" targets showed the Barnauls coming out sideways after only so much as 5 cm penetration on a 25 cm pressed plastic block. Back then I was amazed how much punch this little bullet carried. The principles on yaw I was already much familiar with (bullet wounding capacity is much emphasised in PHTLS doctrines).

Thanks again Yoda, hungry for more...

Bas
 

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The 5.45mm is nowhere near as effective as the 5.56mm NATO in either 55 or 62 gr varieties.

Hey, I like them - I have I think five 5.45 mm rifles - but they just don't wound as effectively as 5.56mm NATO.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thekatar
The 5.45mm is nowhere near as effective as the 5.56mm NATO in either 55 or 62 gr varieties.

Hey, I like them - I have I think five 5.45 mm rifles - but they just don't wound as effectively as 5.56mm NATO.
Kuiper
The principles on yaw I was already much familiar with (bullet wounding capacity is much emphasised in PHTLS doctrines).

well fellas , since we have no PUBLISHED WOUND data for bullets that penetrate mostly sideways (yet ) , its kinda hard to say . all previous types only yaw quickly to base first (heavy end) and spend only the tinyest fraction of a second actully sideways . my tests in water tell me what these bullets do but its kinda hard to measure wound dimensions in water afterward . i have a RUFF IDEA what it is but its general and without specific #s .

surely , a fragmenting FMJ like M193 or ss109 causes a more seious wound even just to extremities but , those qualities seem dependent on weapon type , MV , range , factory of manufacture and even LOT# . not all M193 or ss109 meets specs , if there really were any firm "specs" .?.

whatever the measured wound potential of these airtip FMJ bullets is , it works no matter the range or barrel length because the effect isnt dependant on velocity . i defy anyone to tell me that a fmj bullet penetrating sideways dosent make a more serious wound than one that penetrates pointfirst .


we havent finnished with this subject yet , for sure .
 

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Thekatar said:
The 5.45mm is nowhere near as effective as the 5.56mm NATO in either 55 or 62 gr varieties.

Hey, I like them - I have I think five 5.45 mm rifles - but they just don't wound as effectively as 5.56mm NATO.
?In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet?s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery?NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing?in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than ?massive?, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.?


Fackler, ML: ?Literature Review?. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001
 

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Discussion Starter #17
not only that but , the same has been reported for 762x39 M67 and even the 5.45x39 7N6 at long ranges as reported from the first war in afganystan . notice that even the 7N6 is not as rearweight biased as the commercial LCB due to the steel core (sp.grav. 8.5 ?) / lead kicker (sp.grav. 12 ?) .

it seems these commercial 'improved' LCB rounds cross a ballance threshold that the 762x39 M67 and 5.56x45 M193/ss109 only approach . early and sure yaw is a done deal with them .
 

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Here's pics of the pressed plastic block I shot, each shot in its own was enough to toss the block of its rack....

Weapon AKS74, ammo Barnaul 60 gr FMJ

1) Entry holes


2) Just after 39 mm first sideway exit is visible




3) Apparent weight shift from axial to radial..sideway entries


4) exit holes....
 

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Discussion Starter #19
what is that stuff Kuiper ? "pressed plastic" ? like , putty ?

its difficult to tell from your pictures what you caption in them other than the entrance holes .
 

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Yoda, it's a piece of a reflectorpost found alongside roads here. They make them out of plastic pellets pressing them into moulds, how they get the bubbles in there I don't know..

I found after the first nice round entry the bullets had the tendency to enter the centre of the pole yawed. By the time the entered the second piece of the pole the bullets were sideways and they left the target that way too...


Edit: Will repeat this with some grey pottery clay and make a crosssection of the bullets path soon.
 
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