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1P78 Kashtan review and other 5.45 specific optics

34K views 76 replies 15 participants last post by  DOJO 
#1 ·
I recently acquired the very modern 1P78 Kashtan optic calibrated for 5.45x39. Miglan did a really sweet review also, I thought I'd put my thoughts down and at the same time add a little about the different 5.45 optic's on the market. It shouldn't really be a surprise if you're into AK's but the Russians have made newer designs than the older PSO/POSP series optics that we are familiar with. They have built a few dedicated 5.45 designs which have modern features and interesting concepts. Being a 5.45 buff I've picked up a few of these optics and figured I'd put out some observations and theories along with some hands on experiences.


First off a little background on what is available in 5.45 calibration and a little about what they are designed for, at least as I understand it. There are 4 5.45x39 optics that I know of: PO 3.5x21P, Zeiss ZFK, 1P29 and now the 1P78 Kashtan. The Zeiss is the oldest of them being a cold war optic with a PSO body style and chin weld. Don't let the age and appearance fool you though, it's a tight little optic with amazing glass quality. The 1P29 is a Soviet copy of the British Trilux/SUIT optic with the inverted reticule and all, also relatively older but with some modern design built in. PO 3.5x21P is a wide angle, huge FOV optic that I believe was intended to try and capture military sales but so far hasn't. I don't count it as civilian quality like the POSP but it's not been accepted by the military on a large scale as I know it. Lastly the new 1P78 Kashtan has arrived, it is current military issue and has been accepted for service from what I know.

According to the documentation I've seen for the modern 5.45 optics they are designed for rapid target acquisition and first round hits out to 400m, which seems to be the distance the Russians are optimizing these scopes for and probably employment of the AK74M too. I first heard of this number with the PK-AS red dot and it has come up a few times with optics like 1P29 and 1P78 also, as far as I can see the Russians feel this is a practical engagement distance for the AK74M, and my own experience lines up with this too.

From my understanding the basic concept is to zero the optic at 100m but have point of impact somewhat higher than point of aim, this creates a 400m zero by placing the reticule center mass on the target. At closer ranges the round will hit in the head/upper torso region while at longer ranges the same center mass point of aim will get hits at the expected point of aim. What this means in the field is a point and shoot, always COM point of aim that's good from close to long range. All the 74M rifleman needs to do is line up and shoot without having to get into detail on range finding etc. Seems like this is the same concept as using a red dot vs irons, or why ACOG's are so popular on AR's. I need to check numbers in the manuals I have but it looks like the magic difference in POI vs POA at 100m is about 22-25cm. Anyone with specific details feel free to correct me, I haven't checked the math in detail.

After experimenting with this type of zero out to 300 yards on a few 5.45 optics I have to say for field conditions it works really well, just as intended. It's not so hot when you're trying to impress your friends shooting clays off the backstop at 100 yards due to the difference in POI vs POA, but for snap shooting on larger targets it's been working great. Basically it's the same concept as zeroing at 100m with irons and then switching to battlesight and leaving it alone. With both irons and these scopes effectively you point and shoot for most ranges and can reasonably expect hits somewhere on the target. Pretty much the same as I was trained in the Army back in the day, use a little hold over or under but don't change anything mechanical, just shoot when you see the target.

Another difference between modern optics like 1P29, PO 3.5 and Kashtan vs the older PSO series is that part of the fast acquisition concept is based on the reticule itself and the fact that you don't fool with the turrets for long range shooting. If zeroed properly you use the same chevron all the way out to 400m, then depending on the optic you may have additional chevrons for 500-700m for example, or in the case of the 1P29 a simple cam for the longer shots. For these modern scopes it's the reticule that does the work which lends itself to quicker shooting. While PSO's have additional chevrons for quick long range shooting, the Kashtan and PO3.5 have dispensed with the turret being used for the BDC correction.




Impressions of the Kashtan itself


FOV is really nice, pretty similar to the PO 3.5x21P and much better than 1P29 or the ZFK. At 2.8x it ends up being a really usable magnification that in some ways does seem more like a red dot than a magnified scope. Both eyes open shooting is possible but not quite as easy as PK-AS or Rakurz because of the eye cup and while it does have eye relief it's easily taken care of with the rubber eyepiece (a common feature on Soviet/Russian scopes and works really well). The optic has an orange/yellow coating designed to reduce eye strain and enhance clarity (thanks to Doug Ford/Tantal for the clarification on that).









The Kashtan is tritium illuminated meaning no batteries and no circuitry to break, it's always on and the operator has to do nothing to get the illumination to work. The reticule is black during the day but When light levels drop low enough you can immediately see the illumination. This is a feature I am really enjoying on modern Russian optics like Kashtan, 1P76 Rakurz and the 1P29/UPO-1, it's smart and very simple. No more complaints about battery life on combloc optics ;)





1P78 is centered over the bore and has a good height, it's about the same as an ACOG over a flat top AR or pretty darn close. Speaking of the famous 'unusually high' height of Russian optics I really don't think these optics are universally designed that way as it's usually assumed - some are and some aren't. In any case Kashtan is definitely one of the lower ones out there and is really comfortable. The 1P78 has an adjustable lense cap that rotates freely and has a semi spring loaded detent that keeps it from flopping around. Adjusting the base for a tight fit is like any AK mount optic and takes just a minute to get right. It does block the irons when mounted but not a big deal if you have your tension set properly on the clamp.






Similarities and differences with other 5.45 optics






FOV is similar to PO 3.5x21P (PO is 3.5x, Kashtan is 2.8x with the overall view at distance pretty wide for both) but Kashtan is much lighter in weight than the PO 3.5. (1.5 Lbs vs 2.25 Lbs) Tritium illumination instead of batteries on the PO...I'm really happy with this feature in particular. The Zeiss has really nice optical quality of course but for some people the reticule is a tad busy plus it's a PSO side rail design (eye relief and chin weld) which turns some people off. I love the Zeiss and can't wait to add one to the collection but they aren't for everyone in my experience.

While I love the 1P29 design, most people that have used mine to shoot have said that it isn't that much fun. The concept is pretty alien to a lot of people but it's actually ingenious if you know how it works. Basically by inverting the reticule the target does not get obscured by it during automatic fire or long range that typically requires more and more hold over. I love it, but many people don't for one reason or another. OTOH Kashtan is much more familiar for most people and so far everyone I know that has shot with it has really liked it. The reticule is clean and simple, again it's a very point and shoot optic and it works really well at longer ranges.

If you look at the pic of the day light reticule earlier in the thread you can see a small triangle hanging next to the large steel target. I'd say it's 6-8" on a side. Over the weekend at 300 yards I was hitting that target about 85% of the time with the Kashtan /SGL31 /7N6 combo. Not really that hard to do actually and quite a bit of fun.



1P29
4x magnification, tritium illumination. Civilian model is UPO-1



Tritium relit:







PO 3.5x21P
3.5x magnification, CR123 battery illuminated









Zeiss ZFK
4x magnification, non illuminated








In conclusion I think the 1P78 is a rugged and simple optic. There's a lot of engineering in the design that has made it a pretty easy to scope and it's naturally right at home on an SGL31 type rifle, but should work fine on any 16" barrel 5.45 rifle with a side rail. Should work on the AK105 style as well but you'll probably have to learn some hold over for the second and 3rd chevron.



Also: I've worked all this out by comparing optics and reading the manuals for them but I'm not 100% on all the details just yet, I've still got some more investigation to do. My intent is to share how I think these all work rather than claiming this is written in stone, so again if anyone knows more about specifics I really welcome the education. I'm always up for learning.





Z
 
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18
#2 ·
As always, thanks for the kickass review man! you know who will be getting a few of these bad boys hopefully within a month or so...cant wait to get my hands on the Kashtan.

TX-Zen said:
From my understanding the basic concept is to zero the optic at 100m but have point of impact somewhat higher than point of aim, this creates a 400m zero by placing the reticule center mass on the target. At closer ranges the round will hit in the head/upper torso region while at longer ranges the same center mass point of aim will get hits at the expected point of aim. What this means in the field is a point and shoot, always COM point of aim that's good from close to long range. All the 74M rifleman needs to do is line up and shoot without having to get into detail on range finding etc. Seems like this is the same concept as using a red dot vs irons, or why ACOG's are so popular on AR's. I need to check numbers in the manuals I have but it looks like the magic difference in POI vs POA at 100m is about 22-25cm. Anyone with specific details feel free to correct me, I haven't checked the math in detail


Z
no you are right. Math is all good too. these weren't designed for bench rest shooting...to hit a gnats left testicle @ 300 yards, but rather to be able consistently and successfully make RAPID hits while on select fire, a man size target out to 400 meters +.

One of the kewl settings on the PO 3.5x21 is the superior plus with 3 hash marks which designate the POI rather then POA @ 100, 200 and 300 meters. Make is really easy to hot clay birds @ any of those distances, instead of having to do manual hold-over (or under in this case)

dude by the way....this weekend we are gonna go shoot 800 meters+ with my PO 3,5 x21

will see how much windage correction will have to be done...

:beer:
 
#5 ·
Another great Tx-Zen review!!!

I have to disagree with the with the height of the optic compared to a flat top AR w/ ACOG. I've had numerous years of experience with the ACOG/M4 combo and I would compare it to an ACOG mounted on the carrying handle. Just my 2 cents.
 
#7 ·
moshaholic2 said:
Awesome and informative post!

PK-AS <--- I thought that was a 5.45 scope (red dot) too? Is it not?

it is. The rear elevation turret is comped for 5,45 bullet drop

its my favorite red-black dot out there
 
#8 ·
I should have clarified this is about the magnified optics, but yeah the PK-AS was the first optic I heard of designed for the 5.45 and the first one I heard of designed for first shot hit out to 400m

USN, I don't have an AR to compare it to so I'll take your word for it, I'm just looking at photos and they seem pretty close. It came up in THIS thread, and I put up a pic that I found on the net. diescheize11 thought there was about an inch difference between them. I can't say myself.


Z
 
#9 ·
TX-Zen, the pic of the soldier is an Aimpoint CCO. Aimpoint's have numerous mounts of varying heights. ACOG's have an 1 & 1/2 inch eye relief and sits really low on the flat-top receiver's.

Someone in your neck of the woods must have an AR w/ ACOG for comparision.
 
#10 ·
USN, I know it's an aimpoint but my perception is that both are pretty similar in height. I'm not trying to compare what's the absolute lowest possible mount, more like what it seems most pictures tend to show. I'm also basing it on cheekweld/chinweld on the stock and not the flat top itself. I think looking at the flat top makes the ACOG look lower than what is probably the real distance from the stock to the center of the reticule.

Measuring from the lowest part of the stock I get 3.5" to the center of the Kashtan reticule. Looking at all these pics http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/photo_gallery_list.php?p=ACOG I'm thinking the ACOG must be around 2.5-3" inches from where the cheekweld is to the center of the reticule. Pretty close it seems but that could just be how the photos appear.

Can you measure and see maybe? I think some of the height issue is a misconception but maybe an inch counts, I dunno.



Z
 
#11 ·
No arguments from me bro, I'll measure the top of the buffer tube to the center of the ACOG with the base plate supplied from Trijicon.

I've always hate how low the ACOG sits on the rail and searched for a mount that would raise it up a little bit. I have a long giraffe neck and Russian optics makes it easier for me to aquire a proper sight picture without straining my neck.

BTW, I sold my PO3.5X21P. It's a great optic but I prefer red dots, tell me what you think about the PK-01V from Kalinika Optics :smile:
 
#12 ·
I know the guy you sold it to, we go shooting together all the time and your PO came up a few times. :dance:

I'd like to think I helped get it sold but I think he already had his mind made up and when yours came along he was ready. Sorry to see you let it go but at least it went to a good home, plus to be honest I'd bet you'd like Kashtan more, so that's something to think about down the road.

PK01-V...on my list for sure, along with the VE that Tantal was talking about in another thread. I have the VS model which I like, the PK01 series is pretty nice in general, or at least the modern ones I've seen cropping up lately. I don't know about the older looking ones or really that much about them at all actually. Modern ones seem to be well built and I like the PK01-V side rail system with rings, also on my list to pickup.

Looking forward to measurements on the ACOG too, no hurry though. I'm glad we can all get into the details on this stuff, I learn alot from you guys. :beer:

Thanks!



Z
 
#13 ·
moshaholic2 said:
PK-AS <--- I thought that was a 5.45 scope (red dot) too? Is it not?
There's nothihg about the "PK-AS" it that makes it caliber specific. Now, if you have an original military PKS-01, with 5,45mm calibrated camming, then yes, that is a ture 5,45mm sight. But the standard model marked PK-AS that has equal distance MOA index marks is not really calibrated to any particular round.
 
#15 ·
Who is a reliable source to buy one of these optics? I have looked around online and Kalinka seems to come up most. The threads that come up with the search say not to buy from them as they will send out defective items.

TX Zen, do you find the optic to be large and cumbersome? It looks large to me. I am really wanting an optic for my AK and my experience with optics is with AR, Rem 700 and M14 platforms so please excuse my stupid question. Thanks
 
#16 ·
GTWannabe from arfcom got a Kashtan with flaky reticule and didn't get the kind of customer service he expected on the return, so he was understandably upset. I don't think he really got it worked out to his satisfaction unfortunately.

For me during that same time period and many times since I have ordered plenty of stuff from Kalinka and just like always it's been great. I got my Kashtan from Torx but I would have probably gone with Kalinka at some point anyway, since then I've bought both my Rakurs from them and a few other things like pouches and eye peices in different orders. All I can say that it while GT didn't have a good transaction mine have been flawless for the past 6 years. A number of other optics fan's have the same experience as me...GT's negative experience is the only one I've heard of first hand and the first one in many years to boot.

Personally I don't find the optic cumbersome or large, actually I think it's one of the most well designed optics the Russians have produced. It really has none of the classic complaints like too high, too left etc and the balance is good. If you want large, go with O 3.5x21P :grin:

Maybe a simpler thing to try would be POSP 4x24, Kalinka has the Simonov model for less than $200 and it's a great little optic. The chevrons are calibrated for 7.62x39 but they are easy to use with 5.45 out to most practical ranges if you do a little hold over. If you like the POSP you'll probably like the more modern optics as well.

Knowing what I do these days I'd go straight for Kashtan but sometimes Russian optics can be tricky to newcomers because we in the West don't really seem to understand how the Russians use them and that's why the POSP is usually a pretty safe bet cost wise. If you can't get used to it you're aren't out a lot of money and won't have much trouble reselling it.

I don't mind dropping $500 on an optic because I collect them but the POSP is probably the most cost effective optic solution for an AK I can think of. Only thing cheaper is the Romanian version of the PSO/POSP called the LPS/TIP2. From private sellers they can be found for less than a hundred bucks and it only costs 25$ or so for an AK mount from Kalinka. Only problem is they sit higher than a POSP so they take a little more getting used to, otherwise they are solid (if a little ugly) scopes.


Z
 
#18 ·
here is a quick and dirty translation of the instruction manual for the NPZ-178

Guys, this is by no means a word for word translation (that would take hours) but a quick and dirty translation of the key features that would help you understand how to properly use and maintain your 1P78.

Contents:
-Scope
-Key
-Napkin
-Cover (for storing)
-instructions

Specs:
Mag factor- 2.8x
Angled FOV-13 degrees
Diameter of exit pupil- 6mm
Range- 700 meters
mass- 0.5 kg (1.2 pounds approx)

you all probably know how to adjust your scope mount on your scope to YOUR side rail on your rifle as they are all different. the sticky on this can be found here courtesy of our good friend Doug Ford

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/p ... tments.htm

Screen view
-upside down triangles (chevrons) denote distance in meters
Top is 400m, circle below it is 500, then 600 and 700 respectively.
-vertical bars are a little trickier to use.
D=your unknown distance to the target
A= angular height (height of the vertical bars corresponding to the height of your target)
B= known target size in meters, for simplicity take an average 1.7 meter man

so....... D= (B/A) x 1000
first most inner vertical bar = 2.1, second = 2.4. third=2.9 and fourth =3.6

this is how it works. The armchair commando sees a zombi in the post apocalyptic SHTF scenario...but cannot make out the distance to it, while trying to make a left eye shot...while running (of course). He unlocks his 400$ FAB defense tactical stock which was folded to the right (since we all know, side mounts are useless for AKs that have stocks that fold to the left) and tries to make out the distance.

he places the vertical bars on the KASHTAN on what appears to be a male zombie with a meat cleaver of an average height. The vertical bar that corresponds to the zombie's height happens to be the last vertical line on the left (thus 3.6)

he then takes his i-phone and quickly punches the numbers in his calculator application (from his fast finger skills, acquired from playing medal of honor in his moms basement over the years instead of getting laid)

(1.7/3.6) x 1000 ~ 472 meters.
He then puts small red dot below the first chevron (which corresponds to 500 meters) on the COM of the zombi and squeezes the trigger....only he he misses, due to failure to correct for the wind drift which put his round about 17 inches to the right of the target. The zombi got angry and hurled its cleaver (due to this being a uber strong zombi) at our hero's head, splitting it in half


but seriously, the vertical lines truly apply when your target is really far away. Within 500 meters, just use the top chevron and you will hit it somewhere. Makes sense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zeroing procedure
note - this is for 53 grain 7N6 ammo, when using other commercial stuff you will be close, but keep in mind the bullet drop if using 60 or 70 grain bullets

Place a paper target @ 100 meters. In the center of a large piece of paper, place a 440 mm circle (44 cm), and from controlled environment (off sand bags) fire 4 semi-auto shots
while aiming
AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CIRCLE.

this is a critical point. Your top chevron should be at the bottom of the black circle (point of aim) and the point of impact should be IN THE CENTER of the circle, thus being 22 cm (or the radius of the circle) HIGHER then where you are aiming.

why? this is what is called 400 meter zero. From now on, if one wants to use the scope accordingly to its instructions, if you see a man and you KNOW that he/she is within 400 meters, you simply place your top chevron @ the center of mass and squeeze the trigger
just like the PO 3,5x21 if fired @ COM meters your bullets will strike
@ 100 meters - Head shots
@ 200 meters- Chin shots
@ 300 meters -Neck shots
@ 400 meter- COM shots

your groups of 4-shots while zeroing should not be greater than 5 cm (2.5 inches)
if you are not on paper, move target to 20 meters, and try to get in on paper, then repeat steps above



the elevation control is located on the top, and denoted by letter
? which is UP and
? which is DOWN
Each click is equivalent of 3cm (~ 1 inch)

Windage controls are on the side, denoted by
? (left)
and
? (right)
You use the key (wrench) to turn the dials of the elevation/windage control


thats about it. you guys get the feel for it @ the range, place some human silhouette targets @ known distance to you @ various distances, and use the vertical lines to estimate the range. Thats how i got to understand my PO 3,5x21 scope

Thank you for purchasing the 1p78, on behalf of the Novosibirsk Optical Factory, we wish you happy zombi hunting, and remember, you have (24) months period to warranty your scope in case it breaks for whatever reason. You also must present your copy of the original receipt, or the labor will not be covered.
 
#19 ·
im posting somewhat of a redundant post of the post Voron just wrote :beer: , but with some visual aids..
i posted these pics in another thread about the kashtan..

i checked these height and width examples with some "reduced range" targets i made and they checked out very well..

OK my explanation, in the pic, of how i used this rangefinder is not worded correctly. the "scope" does not use 1.5M for a man sized target (B in the equation). i described that wrong. the scope lets you use whatever you want to use here as long as you know the size. i chose to use 1.5 M for a man (feet to shoulders) because thats what i was used to using with my PO3.5x21.
but doing so seemed to work out very well so that each vertical line was an approx distance in 100 M increments..




pardon the cheesy silhouette drawings.

EX. for height and width at 200M


examples for 400-700M height based


EX. for width.. image represents width of head and shoulders


the B in the equation = known target size in meters..

this can be anything you decide really...

Voron for example used average 1.7 Meter man to top of head
i used feet to shoulders approx 1.5 Meter..
either way gets the same results i believe..

the 3.6 Mil line if used to the top of the head of your man will be closer to 500 as voron calculated, or will be closer to 400 when used to the shoulder..

i figured it would be a good idea to calculate some of these and memorize them ahead of time.. my iphone calculator ninja skills are pretty sketchy to say the least.. :grin:
 
#22 ·
yea, fearrainsdown, thanks for the add!!

i dont think those are cheesy drawings, good visual indicators



here is the issue that i found with using 5, 45 and these scopes.

past 600 meters i had hellowa time hitting even a man size targets. I think its a combination of my shooting skills and the wind bouncing 7N6 around. Using Kashtan, and being within 500 meter range is a pretty safe bet of being able to make consistent hit on a man size targets. and the scope will allow you to do it all day long
This is one of the down-sides of 1P78 that also should be considered

The scope exhibits a light-bounce (sorry, ESL) from the anterior lens that can be seen at far distances by guys with long range optics. If you are sitting in ambush, your opponents can pick up on the light rays bouncing off the lens- this is common for most scopees. Now..Look at the construction of the PO 3,5x21. There is a large rubber pad that is protecting the lens and hides it from the same phenomenon
 
#23 ·
yeah! i hope someone found the pics useful..

please explain the light bounce issue a little more.. i guess im confused. does the rubber eyepiece do anything to shield this effect? are you talking about light shining in thru the exit lense and reflecting off the anterior lense and back out?

speaking of the rubber eyepiece, this is my only one complaint with either the PO3.5x21 and the kashtan. don't get me wrong, i love the feel of the rubber eyepice myself. and to my surprise it's totally useable for me even tho i wear eyeglasses. my complaint is, what am i gonna do if i ever tear or damage it?
i wrote kalinka to ask if replacements could be had, at least for the kashtan, but i received no response.
 
#24 ·
p.s. i know this isnt exactly the right tread to ask this but i have TX and voron here together at once. i have been keeping up with your guys' testing and reviews of these scopes. also voron's testing of the hornady 5.45 ammo. my question for you guys is:

in the "long range" testing you guys have been doing with these scopes, have you used any hornady 5.45 or strictly 7N6?

if so, have you noticed much of a shift in POA vs POI between the 7N6 and the Hornady out at these 400M and greater distances?

i read in one thread that there was no noiceable shift out to 100M,
but 4,5,and 600M might be a different story.

those of us with no access to long shooting ranges are dying to know
 
#25 ·
fearrainsdown said:
yeah! i hope someone found the pics useful..

please explain the light bounce issue a little more.. i guess im confused. does the rubber eyepiece do anything to shield this effect? are you talking about light shining in thru the exit lense and reflecting off the anterior lense and back out?

speaking of the rubber eyepiece, this is my only one complaint with either the PO3.5x21 and the kashtan. don't get me wrong, i love the feel of the rubber eyepice myself. and to my surprise it's totally useable for me even tho i wear eyeglasses. my complaint is, what am i gonna do if i ever tear or damage it?
i wrote kalinka to ask if replacements could be had, at least for the kashtan, but i received no response.
sorry, i should have been a little more clear

as Zen pointed out to me, the effect is not solely exhibit to the Kashtan, but to any scope that does not have a protective anterior end piece. Take the PSO-1 or PSO-1M2...the end has an extended piece that slides over and protects the scope not only from the rain, but from light bouncing off the anterior lens.

but it IS a sniper scope, which Kashtan is not by any means. Kashtan leaves PSO-1 in the dust when it comes down to the field of view and tritium filled illuminated reticle.

PO 3,5x21 has a rubber extention on it, protecting the anterior lense. But look at the downsize of the PO 3,5x21....it has doubled the weight of Kashtan, and 1/3 of the size

we are NOT taking about sniper type scope that I should have been more clear of. Kashtan is an quick acquisition scope that was made for AK-74 assault rifle to be fired on select fire, not sitting in a brush billy zane and tom berenger style. my bad
 
#26 ·
I'm currently limited to about 300m but might get a chance to shoot at a 1000 yard range up in Austin, TX with my friend Nictra. We need to coordinate the details but it might happen this summer.

Also haven't had a chance to fool with Hornady but I'll get around to it soon I think, I'm a 7N6 man to the core but Voron's review was really great and I'd like to see some first hand.



Z
 
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