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I said that my AKMSN could be 100% demilitarized gun or the one with replaced new parts or build from repair parts or from new ones because in the time when it was WBP produced their guns in every mentioned way.

So it could be original as well but with removed (11) markings.

What do you mean that you can own more variety guns as we can own here in Poland?

Maybe we've got some steict rules but remember that in your country everything is depandable from the state you live.

We can have open bolt guns, we don't have mag capacity limitation, we can attache bayonets on our guns, we don't need to weld stocks and some other crap lije you do in some states or in whole country.

I think that you didn't understand a word which I've wrote.

In here in gun shops we got ORIGINAL AKs, as well Polish, russian, Romanians and other i 100% original shape where castration to semiauto is mostly a simple cut or spot weld inside the gun.

If you were watching in school always bigger market has first place so sellers will always choose it at first place. It is simple economy.

Our market is bigger in every year and some prices ar dropping and other are going higher.
Foe egsample few days ago one shop was selling original Zastava M56 in full set for les than 500 PLN which is ca. $120 or less.
Polish PPS wz. 43 for 540 PN in full set.
Galil for ca. 1400 PLN.

I'm not jelous about what you've got but on that you are destroying original guns just to rebuild them and that is a shame.
 

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About pistol grip I'm not sure because it is 1973 made so it could be rather replaced during some repairs and also on the bottom of the receiver you've got a plate which is on AKM and this grip in this kit is interesting - I need to check in repairs manual if using AK grip into AKM pattern rifles was allowed.
[/QUOTE]

AKMS were not fitted with bakelite pistol grip at all during their production (except for a few made in 1977 which is arguable too).
 

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Wow! This a really nice rifle. a true moonrock
Glad that you posted detailed pics of the folding stock.
Thanks for sharing it
Can't wait til you post a video about :)
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I said that my AKMSN could be 100% demilitarized gun or the one with replaced new parts or build from repair parts or from new ones because in the time when it was WBP produced their guns in every mentioned way.

So it could be original as well but with removed (11) markings.

What do you mean that you can own more variety guns as we can own here in Poland?

Maybe we've got some steict rules but remember that in your country everything is depandable from the state you live.

We can have open bolt guns, we don't have mag capacity limitation, we can attache bayonets on our guns, we don't need to weld stocks and some other crap lije you do in some states or in whole country.

I think that you didn't understand a word which I've wrote.

In here in gun shops we got ORIGINAL AKs, as well Polish, russian, Romanians and other i 100% original shape where castration to semiauto is mostly a simple cut or spot weld inside the gun.

If you were watching in school always bigger market has first place so sellers will always choose it at first place. It is simple economy.

Our market is bigger in every year and some prices ar dropping and other are going higher.
Foe egsample few days ago one shop was selling original Zastava M56 in full set for les than 500 PLN which is ca. $120 or less.
Polish PPS wz. 43 for 540 PN in full set.
Galil for ca. 1400 PLN.

I'm not jelous about what you've got but on that you are destroying original guns just to rebuild them and that is a shame.
You are delusional with your logic on firearms and originality. This is like arguing with a child who doesn't speak the same language. I wish you the best of luck, now please stop commenting on this thread. Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Wow! This a really nice rifle. a true moonrock
Glad that you posted detailed pics of the folding stock.
Thanks for sharing it
Can't wait til you post a video about :)
Trying to get some info together about it so I can do a nice in depth video about it.

Also, your comment about the 1977 pistol grips. That topic has always fascinated me. Only picture of one I have seen that looks mint is from a collector in Switzerland who had a beautiful AKMS. But is that an original factory thing or added later? My 1977 rifle (non-PLO) has the correct style plastic grip and 1/1 mould number. I really want to believe its original to the gun...but theres no way to ever be sure, sadly.
 

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Trying to get some info together about it so I can do a nice in depth video about it.

Also, your comment about the 1977 pistol grips. That topic has always fascinated me. Only picture of one I have seen that looks mint is from a collector in Switzerland who had a beautiful AKMS. But is that an original factory thing or added later? My 1977 rifle (non-PLO) has the correct style plastic grip and 1/1 mould number. I really want to believe its original to the gun...but theres no way to ever be sure, sadly.
I love the new video format
regarding the PG I have no idea TBH. I think that Russians experimented with bakelite grips for the AKMS and were not strong enough so they went with the wooden ones.
I think I read it here in this forum that they used bakelite PGs in 1977 it but I am not sure at all.
My personal opinion is that yours or the one you talked about in the swiss collection might be correct as the russians at the end used bakelite PGs with their AKS 74 and krinks so it could be. I am waiting for Max Popenker's book about the development of the AK. it might answer many of the questions we have.

My two cents
 

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You are delusional with your logic on firearms and originality. This is like arguing with a child who doesn't speak the same language. I wish you the best of luck, now please stop commenting on this thread. Cheers
Because thats are the facts about first made AKs by WBP.
And as I can see childish is how treat facts - you just ignore them if they are inconvinient for you like a typical snowflake.
The same as you are ignoring fact that these US kits are not the same as 100% original guns.

You've also didn't answered me which guns we can't own in Poland since you are so huge specialist.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
I love the new video format
regarding the PG I have no idea TBH. I think that Russians experimented with bakelite grips for the AKMS and were not strong enough so they went with the wooden ones.
I think I read it here in this forum that they used bakelite PGs in 1977 it but I am not sure at all.
My personal opinion is that yours or the one you talked about in the swiss collection might be correct as the russians at the end used bakelite PGs with their AKS 74 and krinks so it could be. I am waiting for Max Popenker's book about the development of the AK. it might answer many of the questions we have.

My two cents

Thank you, I appreciate that!

I recall reading, or maybe talking to Doug, that the plastic PG's were a customer option in 1977. Since many of the rifles in that year were "built to order" I wonder if the end user requested plastic PG's over wood. For example, Somalia. I have seen multiple photos from the early 80's of Somali regular Army soldiers with 1977' AKMS'. Unfortunately, their hands totally obscure the PG's in the pictures, but I am confident they would have gotten those rifles brand new in 1977. Somalia broke ties with the USSR in late 1977, so its feasible they would have gotten arms from them. I have also seen an AKMS from 1977 which originated in Somalia that has the plastic pistol grip similar to mine with 1/1 mold number. I also don't think Izhmash was putting the plastic PG's on super late production AKMS' only (if in fact they did). My gun is in the 800xxx serial number range. All of the minty PLO 77 AKMS kits that we've seen through the years are in the 900xxx range and have wood grips. So, logic would indicate plastic PG's were a customer option.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Heres a Somali in 1983 with a 1977 Izhmash AKMS (not the bolt carrier numbers on the right side). That rifle would only be 6 years old. I am certain those would have been brand new rifles delivered directly to the Somali Army at that point.
309269
 

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Heres a Somali in 1983 with a 1977 Izhmash AKMS (not the bolt carrier numbers on the right side). That rifle would only be 6 years old. I am certain those would have been brand new rifles delivered directly to the Somali Army at that point. View attachment 309269
Really interesting.
I also recall seeing a pic here of either a Somali or Ethiopian militia guy or a pirate with with a russian AKMS (I can tell from the UF stock spot welds, gas block, furniture etc..). But guess what ?
Instead of the regular AB selector markings it had a swahili or arabic markings. So yeah I think you are right it might be one of the costume orders as they did have special ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Really interesting.
I also recall seeing a pic here of either a Somali or Ethiopian militia guy or a pirate with with a russian AKMS (I can tell from the UF stock spot welds, gas block, furniture etc..). But guess what ?
Instead of the regular AB selector markings it had a swahili or arabic markings. So yeah I think you are right it might be one of the costume orders as they did have special ones.
Oh man, I've never seen that pic! Can we find it? Gotta check it out.
 

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I remember the title of the thread was something like "Identify this AK" or "which AK is this"
I will look it up quick if i found it I will post a link here
 

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Iżewsk made AKM:
1968:

1970:

1971:

And there will be more available vlado also AKMŁ should be in next transport if nothing will go wrong on the border and all of them only converted to semi auto by cutting two pieces in fire control group and cost 2650 PLN which is today less than $700 for original Iżewsk made AKM.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
I remember the title of the thread was something like "Identify this AK" or "which AK is this"
I will look it up quick if i found it I will post a link here
I found it! Good lord, that is an incredible piece. I am somewhat surprised, but not really, that Izhmash would do customs stamps like that. Iraq was such a good customer I guess they bended over for them, lol.
 

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Beautiful rifle! I would love to own it but got lost in the side tracked discussion.

The rifle is not technically designated a "АКМСЛ" (GRAU index 6П4Л) rifle since it's missing the night scope, but I'm quite certain you will take care of that if not already. The complex out the factory would be AKMS+Scope+Rail+Slotted Flame Arrestor. The serial numbers on rail don't match with 2nd and 3rd variation НСП-3's (1ПН-27 later than December 1969 - March 1972 and later than March 1972 until EOP). Both those variations serial numbers also have a letter "Д" suffix. I doubt the rifle would be issued the shinny black 1st variation 1ПН-27 (1967 - December 1969).

My guess based on your rail serial number and rifle production year is that it was issued with a НСП-3A (GRAU 1ПН-28), as a modified complex "АКМСЛ" (GRAU Index 6П4Л). Of course it could have been outfitted with an earlier scope somewhere down the line.

Also, the НСПУ (GRAU 1ПН-34) was adopted in 1971 as universal scope for all small arms, so even this could have been a possibility, in which case it would be НСПУ (GRAU 1ПН-34), modified complex "AKMCH-1" (GRAU 6П4H-1). This is the other possibility that I am aware of.

To answer the question regarding AKMN (once has specific scope would be assigned proper GRAU designation) production numbers. These complex numbers from factory and GRAU designation is dependent on which scope is issued with the rifle at the factory. The overhead luminous sight devices are a different subject.

1966г. АКМ with Night Vision - 100
1967г. АКМN - 205
1968г. АКМN - 870
1969г. АКМN - 650
1970г. АКМN - 1,260
1971г. АКМN - 1,552
1972г. АКМN - 1,631
1973г. АКМN — 1,600; А-3 - 67
1974г. АКМN — 1,670; АК74 — 10,948
1975г. АК74 — about 50,000
 

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Should just be AKMS all inclusive and not AKM. That is different number i thought I had included but didn’t. I will fix that note. Thanks!
 

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I found it! Good lord, that is an incredible piece. I am somewhat surprised, but not really, that Izhmash would do customs stamps like that. Iraq was such a good customer I guess they bended over for them, lol.
It surprised me too knowing that Izzy is not a commercial company and would not care like FN or other companies to add these things. Maybe Soviets did it to make it easier to train their supported militia on them ?
 
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