Some sbr and trust help please
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  1. #1
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    Some sbr and trust help please

    So I have had it with goofy looking 16 inch rifles and carbines. I have always wanted to get into sbrs and suppresors.

    I have done some limited research. I am thinking a trust is what I want. It will be for multiple firearms and suppressors. It will have multiple family members in it.

    A local lawyer has trusts setup for around $100. I dont know what that includes as I am just starting to look. Online I found this, https://thetrustshop.net/home/. Has anyone used them before?

    Lastly, help me clear this up. With a trust is it just the $200 tax per item to transfer in or does each member of the trust pay along with sending paperwork?

    Thanks for your help in advance.
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  2. #2
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    The $200 is the tax for the stamp. You pay that once for each NFA item. Each responsible person on the trust must submit photo and fingerprints with the ATF Form 1 or 3.

    My advice? Go with the lawyer. Its more expensive but he will know your state-specific rules (if any) and can answer all your questions. Trust him, not random people on the internet to keep you out of trouble.
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    My suggestion is to really consider why you'd setup a trust. If you want family members to be able to use the NFA items while you're not around, then a trust is likely the way to go. If not, it's pretty much a waste and actually complicates the process. Trusts became popular a few years ago when people were having difficulty getting CLEOs to sign off on the NFA forms which was effectively blocking them from getting NFA items. Trusts were a work around of these tyrants because they didn't require CLEOs to signoff. Also, the members of the trust didn't have to go through background checks. With the changes to the process that Obama made, members of trusts now have to go through the background checks. However, there is no longer a CLEO signoff requirement. This effectively eliminates the primary reason that most people setup trusts. I've always done my NFA forms as an individual. Since I don't want anyone messing with my NFA items (and non-NFA items) when I'm not around, there's no reason for me to have a trust.
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    I'm with Bret on this one...an individual is the way to go. I did all mine on paper, but I think you can efile it now.
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    Bret is correct, however, I still use a trust for one reason. Well two. I want "PDW Trust" engraved on the weapon, not my name. There is one rifle floating around out there with my name on it from a long time ago, it still bothers me when I think about it. Secondly, if I die my wife can take all the time she needs to sell off my collection. If you don't have a wife or older kids then the second reason is moot of course.
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    If you don’t want your name on it, you could always ask a SOT to make it a SBR, then transfer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut308 View Post
    If you don’t want your name on it, you could always ask a SOT to make it a SBR, then transfer.
    Tell me more. I don't know shit about tax stamp items. I find it sketchy as fuck you have to send prints and pictures. The gov already has all that info on me from service anyhow, I'm just saying for a firearm it seems a little too ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Tell me more. I don't know shit about tax stamp items. I find it sketchy as fuck you have to send prints and pictures. The gov already has all that info on me from service anyhow, I'm just saying for a firearm it seems a little too ridiculous.
    It's a law that was passed in 1934. Information was much less available back then and the law hasn't been updated. If you want an NFA item, then you have to play by the rules of the 1934 law.

    The "maker" of the NFA item has to engrave his name, city and state on it. If you want to make an NFA item, you fill out a Form 1. If you want to buy an NFA item that already exists, the seller (generally) fills out a Form 4 and you sign it.
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    Good point already stated: If you have family members, even friends, that you want to have access to the NFA items without you present, go with a trust. This is a benefit for me. You can add and remove trustees at any time. Have an adult child that gets married and you want the new son/daughter in law to have access? Just add them to the trust. You can also remove people at any time.

    So you could have a trust with just yourself. Then file. Then add trustees after approval. By doing this, those trustees don't need to submit prints and photos. A simple notarized statement can add/remove trustees. Prints/photos for responsible persons are those who are trustees at the time of filing.

    Efile for individual or trust Form 1's are running about 3-4 weeks. If you have a SOT make the SBR to keep your name off the item, then you have to have the item transferred to you on a Form 4. No e-file option and they are still running about a year for approval. Plus you'll still have to submit your prints/photos and submit the CLEO letter. There is pretty much no way around that, unless... you have someone else set up the trust (spouse, child, parent). Then they file for the NFA item. Then they add you to the trust later.
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    Thanks very much all. Great info.

    I'm going to talk to the local lawyer and see what all services he includes.


  12. #11
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    NFA Trust

    If you are single, no kids, no plans to get married (ever), no plans to have kids (ever), don't care what happens to your stuff when you die, then just do it as an individual.

    But, "ever" is a long time.....

    When you die - you will (sorry, it WILL happen eventually) any NFA item that belongs to you as an individual will have to be turned over to the ATF or an SOT. Then, before it can be transferred back to your wife/kids/grandkids, they will have to pay for a new tax stamp for every single item...

    My NFA trust has over a dozen items in the inventory. That would be over $2,500 in tax stamps that my kids/grandkids would have to pay for a second time, assuming they wanted to keep the items after my death.

    If you use a trust, upon your death the items contained in the trust will pass TAX FREE to the beneficiaries. So once you die (again, you will..) basically nothing happens. The kids/grandkids (whomever you assign as the beneficiaries) will simply take possession of the items in the trust.

    An added bonus to a trust...

    If you have a wife that likes to shoot - or kids over 18 that like to shoot, you can add them as a "Subordinate Trustee". Any Subordinate Trustee can take possession of any item in the trust, drag it to the range and play with it - you can stay home and watch football. The only downside to having a "Subordinate Trustee" is they are considered a "Responsible Person". So should you apply for any new tax stamps, you will be required to submit fingerprint cards, passport photos and a Form 23 (5320.23) for each Responsible Person.

    If you have specific plans (i.e. you have a certain number of suppressors, SBR's, sub-guns, etc. that you want) you can get all that stuff bought and added to the trust. Then add your Subordinate Trustee(s) as required so all of the family members can play with your toys. In a well-written trust, you can add/delete a Subordinate Trustee at will. So you can obtain all your tax stamps, add the family members and go play.

    In the even you decide to add another toy, you can remove the Subordinate Trustees from the trust. Then apply for a new tax stamp using only yourself as a Responsible Person. Once the new tax stamp is received, you can add the Subordinate Trustees back into the document.

    Note that during the time you remove the authority from the Subordinate Trustee(s), they may not (legally) maintain possession of any NFA item in the trust without your presence.

    It is VERY IMPORTANT that you obtain the trust from somebody that actually has experience in generating an NFA "qualified" trust. Many attorneys can draw a "family trust" or "estate trust". But the rules for an NFA trust are quite different. You may spend a ton of money on a family trust from a local attorney, only to find that ATF will reject it later. In the event ATF rejects the trust, you have lost your $200 and you have to start all over again with a new trust.

    I have filed many (many) Form 4's for NFA trust applicants. I have only filed one for an individual. He doesn't like his family, doesn't care whether they get his machine guns, suppressors, etc. after his death. When I recommended he use a trust, his specific statement was "F**k them..."

    He is already pushing 80, so it is likely I will see those items come back through my shop after his death. His kids can either pay for new tax stamps, or I can keep them...

    I have items in my trust located in multiple states with multiple Subordinate Trustees. But my trust was done by Arsenal Attorneys. I would not recommend trying to do some "multi-state, multi-generation" NFA trust using anybody else. If you are looking for a simple trust that will serve you and your immediate family, the one available from Silencer Shop works great (at $129). ATF has accepted that trust multiple times - including at least twice from my customers. I have had a couple of applications returned that included trusts from "Super budget internet gun trust company, Inc" (Obviously a fictitious name, but you get the point).

    Basically, if the trust only cost $69 there is probably a reason for it...

    But stay away from the idea of doing it as an individual - unless you really don't care what happens to your toys after you leave the planet...

    Last suggestion - keep the name of the trust simple. If you plan to convert a carbine to an SBR, you can file a Form 1 and do it yourself. But you must engrave the trust name on the newly made firearm. I had one customer - his trust name is (essentially) "The John Henry Williams family and NFA gun and other property trust".

    So anything he builds on a Form 1 must have this engraved on the receiver "The John Henry Williams family and NFA gun and other property trust, Yellville, AR"

    What could possibly go wrong with that idea....

    In contrast I just did another customer (John William Smith) - he used "JWS Trust" (His initials). So any engraving required on anything he builds will be "JWS Trust, Yellville, AR". I have had three (3) others that did the same thing, ATF has approved all three of those applications.

    Hope that helps!

    M.T. Vinson
    AKWORX, Incorporated '07/02 FFL/SOT
    Baxter County, AR.
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    One additional note...

    I just noted the comment about the "CLEO letter".

    All of the CLEO sign-off's went away in 2016. Despite President "Dickhead's" - er, "Obama's" best efforts, his "big plan" to shut down/slow down NFA applications with Directive 41P basically only resulted in the complete elimination of the CLEO signature requirements.

    So any NFA application filed after July of 2016 no longer requires an approval from a local Chief Law Enforcement Officer.

    They still get a copy of the application, but it doesn't matter whether they "approve" or not.

    M.T. Vinson
    AKWORX, Incorporated, '07/02 FFL/SOT
    Baxter County, AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akworx-inc View Post
    When you die - you will (sorry, it WILL happen eventually) any NFA item that belongs to you as an individual will have to be turned over to the ATF or an SOT. Then, before it can be transferred back to your wife/kids/grandkids, they will have to pay for a new tax stamp for every single item...

    My NFA trust has over a dozen items in the inventory. That would be over $2,500 in tax stamps that my kids/grandkids would have to pay for a second time, assuming they wanted to keep the items after my death.
    This information is 100% incorrect. NFA items possessed by individuals transfer tax free to heirs on a Form 5. There is absolutely no requirement that they have to be turned over to a dealer or the ATF. Please read up on the facts and don't spread this sort of misinformation.

    https://www.esilencers.com/passing-n...thout-a-trust/

    https://www.ammoland.com/2017/12/nfa-firearms-die-legal-brief-video/#axzz5zMrM7ya6



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    There's not really anything bad about the trusts, if you can get one for $100, I'd go that route as it gives you flexibility in letting family members have access to the items. With an individual named on the stamp the person named has to be there if someone else is shooting it, so no letting your brother use that 300 blackout with the suppressor for deer hunting. Need to leave the state for a year or two for a job, better hope the new state lets you have the toys or it gets complicated around storage of NFA items outside of your possession, with a trust you just leave them with your parents or siblings named in the trust. Inheritance is the same either way, they go tax free to the person you're leaving them to. Like was said earlier markings for a trust are the trust name, not your legal name which is what's required for an individual, so a lot of people like that. Really though if you're looking at getting SBR/SBS then you're much better off buying a factory/sot built one than rolling your own if you think you'll ever sell it.
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    I went through the same thoughts as OP in 2015 when I detected a disturbance in the NFA "Force" that "something" was going to change in the NFA process. The "pre-41P" panic. No one truly knew what changes were going to happen until they published the changes in January or February 2016.

    I had a small window to obtain every firearm and suppressor that I envisioned ever being in my NFA collection. I did it all in 7 months. It was a very educational experience.

    I was able to get almost all my forms submitted prior to enactment of 41P. I personally did not wish to willing send my photos and fingerprints in during that administration - hence my motivation to act quickly. I made many sacrifices to make it happen.

    Though I have no specific heirs, a trusted friend is on my NFA trust. If I wake up dead he can arrive at my doorstep and take possession of every NFA item I have without any paperwork. To me that is a huge advantage of the trust. The trust minimizes the potential of Federal drama. There are no fingerprints or photographs of him associated with the trust either.

    In the post 41P enactment reality we live in now I would still use a trust. One popular tactic is to create the trust with just the grantor on it (my term may be wrong there). Once NFA items are approved there is NOTHING that can stop you from adding people to the trust after that approval is obtained. It is best to get all your forms approved first and then add the other people to the trust.

    I've also read of people using a new trust each time they want a new NFA item so the people listed on the existing trust don't have to submit fingerprints and photographs.


    I had two firearms that didn't quite make it into efile during the pre-41P panic. The efile system went down while I was trying to get my last three items filed - one item of those three made it into the efile system before it crashed or was intentionally shut down one day early before the actual deadline. Those firearms that didn't make it in were last minute decisions and not a huge priority. I sometimes think about filing them with a new trust.

    I still have some stamps that are approved but not yet completed firearms. You may not be aware that a Trust can also function as a "manufacturer".
    Last edited by MPiKM-72; 09-13-2019 at 08:06 AM.
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