SVD Dragunov, MLOK accessories or traditional format? - Page 2

View Poll Results: If you were to purchase a SVD Dragunov, which format would your prefer?

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  • SVD Dragunov with MLOK furniture

    1 2.78%
  • SVD Dragunov with traditional wood or polymer furniture

    34 94.44%
  • SVD Dragunov in some other format

    1 2.78%
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Thread: SVD Dragunov, MLOK accessories or traditional format?

  1. #16
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    It's not a sniper rifle and it can never be one.

  2. #17
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    Hmm, okay I'll bite,

    If it is not and has never been a sniper rifle exactly what is it?

    Last I checked "снайперская винтовка Драгунова" meant "Dragunov sniper rifle": I am pretty sure it does not stand for "Dragunov chicken plucker" or any other nonesuch.

    Please elaborate?
    Last edited by KMFDM; 02-12-2020 at 07:59 PM. Reason: clarity
    "odio vitae semper dissolubilis"

    "Ludo mentis sciem"

    "Senecta aetas viresque, atque perfidium expugnat"

    "sic semper purgamentus Yugo kalashnikov! Tempus orbem ad excoquam eorum et dimittetur eis!"

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMFDM View Post
    Hmm, okay I'll bite,

    If it is not and has never been a sniper rifle exactly what is it?

    Last I checked "снайперская винтовка Драгунова" meant "Dragunov sniper rifle": I am pretty sure it does not stand for "Dragunov chicken plucker" or any other nonesuch.

    Please elaborate?
    Sure! 1960s Soviet understanding of a sniper rifle. The same Soviet Union who's doctrine wasn't to adjust the sights of a rifle to the shooter but to make the shooter remember where the firearm shot.

    I believe that the Colonial Army used sniper rifles too. Doesn't mean muskets are sniper rifles

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  5. #19
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    Sorry, not quite...

    The rifle was purpose built as a sniper rifle from it's it's initial design to its use these days: The rifle, it's scope and the specialized ammunition designed for it were just coincidental I guess? Also what you are telling me the scope on the rifle was not adjustable or adjusted at all and it's user just had to make due? That is interesting as I have a rather large collection of PSO-1 optics from the 1960's to the 1990's and all of them are adjustable for zero. Also the former Soviet and Warsaw pact snipers I have talked to zeroed their SVD's by themselves.

    Perhaps applying the cookie cutter mentality to Soviet infantry works with snipers I guess also? The musket analogy does not fit the to the conversation unless you are comparing a Whitworth target rifle to an 1861 Springfield (and it still is not a good comparison because the Whitworth was a target rifle re-purposed and not purpose built) so please try again.

    Are you saying the Soviet understanding of a sniper rifle is incorrect? Incorrect to whom? Is or is it not the weapon designed and still in use as a sniper rifle today or am I incorrect?

    While the design may be a little dated by modern concepts it is still a sniper rifle, sorry you'll have to try harder.
    BigSal likes this.
    "odio vitae semper dissolubilis"

    "Ludo mentis sciem"

    "Senecta aetas viresque, atque perfidium expugnat"

    "sic semper purgamentus Yugo kalashnikov! Tempus orbem ad excoquam eorum et dimittetur eis!"

  6. #20
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    It's simply a step down from a sniper rifle. A DMR.
    It's not an accurate rifle and the ammo is even worse.

    That's all the accuracy the Russians could come up with. Just remember to aim at the buckle and it should be good enough.
    They can call it whatever the hell they want to as they designed it.

  7. #21
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    Gonna have to find my Tales of the Gun VHS about sniper rifles, but in short sniper comes from the word snipe, or small bird that doesn't perch for very long, making it hard to hit. People who were good at hunting snipe were known as snipers, and their rifles were known as snipers rifles.

    Rem 700 isn't a DMR or long range precision rifle. It's a hunting rifle. So for who was the Mod. 70 for? I think is more about for who or what the weapon is designed or redesigned for.
    Last edited by Gypsy; 02-14-2020 at 03:43 PM.

  8. #22
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    KMFDM is correct in the designation and purpose of the rifle.
    KMFDM is incorrect wanting to put a bunch of rails and magpul junk on it.

    davehal9000 likes this.
    --> VEPR DOT ORG <--

  9. #23
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    Try harder? Ok. Put it up against the cheapest Savage bolt action!
    43m1garand likes this.

  10. #24
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    Also some cars they produced in the past were called luxury models.
    By what standards? Russian, of course.

    Their snipers had to use the SVD since there was no other option for them, therefore by default it became a sniper rifle.
    "Good enough" is just not optimal in most cases.

    Warsaw pact had a different vision about everything.
    Build it cheaply and in great quantities.

    Most of the AK's had optic side rails but no optics on them.
    Of course you don't need an optic on your rifle if you are taught to spray the enemy in auto mode or your type of ammo is ineffective beyond 300m.

  11. #25
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    Ok I'll take these on one at a time:

    "It's simply a step down from a sniper rifle. A DMR. It's not an accurate rifle and the ammo is even worse." Most what are colloquially called DMR's issued out to the Army initially were just box stock leftover M-14s with a MCCann type scope rail attached and a civilian scope of some form (If memory serves me it was a Burris or Nikon scope most of the time) sometimes match ammo was available or M118 LR. Some units armament personnel later updated their M14's with the EBR type stocks and sometimes a leupold optic: No real standards just a stop gap. One infantry division the 3rd had a purpose built SDM upper for M16A2/A4s made by the AMU and that was never more than a very small amount overall. The Army's idea these days of a DMR is a M16A2/A4/M4A1 with an ACOG.... Quite a distance from the Dragunov Sniper Rifle.

    Ok now I have to ask what is considered "inaccurate" you broad brush stroke it here, give me some real numbers. Or are you just parroting what others have said? What can you say to back it up?

    That's all the accuracy the Russians could come up with. Just remember to aim at the buckle and it should be good enough.
    They can call it whatever the hell they want to as they designed it.
    " Hmm, funny they had targets shaped like heads, head and shoulders, 1/2 Torso's, full body silhouettes etc. I've never seen one shaped like a belt buckle...I understand you are referring to iron sights and the aiming techniques used primarily for combat marksmanship from and AK type weapon and possible for an iron sight on a SVD but the primary sight for the weapon was the PSO-1.

    "Try harder? Ok. Put it up against the cheapest Savage bolt action!"
    : No problem, you are comparing a bolt action to a semi-auto, next...try comparing one to an M-21 the distance narrows quite a bit then.

    "Also some cars they produced in the past were called luxury models.
    By what standards? Russian, of course
    . "
    True there, but remember the Russians had far more sniper experience than us when these sniper rifles were being developed....

    "Their snipers had to use the SVD since there was no other option for them, therefore by default it became a sniper rifle.
    "Good enough" is just not optimal in most cases
    .
    " Really, do you see any other militaries' snipers running around with other than issued rifles: The M-21 was the first sniper rifle I trained on and it was not really a great rifle either, then came the M24, SR-25, Mk.13, M110, M2010- I have yet to see anything else being used not even a much vaunted Savage. If you want to compare bolt actions to semi auto's then there is no real comparison. What I am hearing here is personal ideas not reality...

    "Warsaw pact had a different vision about everything.Build it cheaply and in great quantities." Yes, and spend money where you have too (SVD) and go cheap where you can (AK series).

    "Most of the AK's had optic side rails but no optics on them. Of course you don't need an optic on your rifle if you are taught to spray the enemy in auto mode or your type of ammo is ineffective beyond 300m." Most AK's had optics rails on them that is news to me when did that start? It seems to me sometime around 1990 +/- (AK-74M iI believe) just as the cold was was ending 43 some odd years after the AK was issued did rails become prevalent. I have seen just about as many Soviet snipers just blazing away from the hip; side-by-side in lockstep with their AK armed brethren smashing through the Fulda gap whilst overrunning the 11th ACR.....as I have optic rails on AK's from the Soviet era.

    This makes my head hurt I am going to go drink now....and wait patiently for M-Lok accessories for my TIGRS and NDM's, I am sure it will be a long wait.
    "odio vitae semper dissolubilis"

    "Ludo mentis sciem"

    "Senecta aetas viresque, atque perfidium expugnat"

    "sic semper purgamentus Yugo kalashnikov! Tempus orbem ad excoquam eorum et dimittetur eis!"

  12. #26
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    MOA vs MOM That should summarize it.

  13. #27
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    "MOA vs MOM That should summarize it. "

    I think for once we may agree:
    MOA (Minute of angle I am supposing) or close too SVD
    MOM (Minute of Man I am guessing here) most M16/M4 based DMR's out there these days...

    I am glad you are finally able to see the light....
    Last edited by KMFDM; 02-14-2020 at 06:17 AM.
    "odio vitae semper dissolubilis"

    "Ludo mentis sciem"

    "Senecta aetas viresque, atque perfidium expugnat"

    "sic semper purgamentus Yugo kalashnikov! Tempus orbem ad excoquam eorum et dimittetur eis!"

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMFDM View Post
    Ok I'll take these on one at a time:

    "It's simply a step down from a sniper rifle. A DMR. It's not an accurate rifle and the ammo is even worse." Most what are colloquially called DMR's issued out to the Army initially were just box stock leftover M-14s with a MCCann type scope rail attached and a civilian scope of some form (If memory serves me it was a Burris or Nikon scope most of the time) sometimes match ammo was available or M118 LR. Some units armament personnel later updated their M14's with the EBR type stocks and sometimes a leupold optic: No real standards just a stop gap. One infantry division the 3rd had a purpose built SDM upper for M16A2/A4s made by the AMU and that was never more than a very small amount overall. The Army's idea these days of a DMR is a M16A2/A4/M4A1 with an ACOG.... Quite a distance from the Dragunov Sniper Rifle.

    Ok now I have to ask what is considered "inaccurate" you broad brush stroke it here, give me some real numbers. Or are you just parroting what others have said? What can you say to back it up?

    That's all the accuracy the Russians could come up with. Just remember to aim at the buckle and it should be good enough.
    They can call it whatever the hell they want to as they designed it.
    " Hmm, funny they had targets shaped like heads, head and shoulders, 1/2 Torso's, full body silhouettes etc. I've never seen one shaped like a belt buckle...I understand you are referring to iron sights and the aiming techniques used primarily for combat marksmanship from and AK type weapon and possible for an iron sight on a SVD but the primary sight for the weapon was the PSO-1.

    "Try harder? Ok. Put it up against the cheapest Savage bolt action!"
    : No problem, you are comparing a bolt action to a semi-auto, next...try comparing one to an M-21 the distance narrows quite a bit then.

    "Also some cars they produced in the past were called luxury models.
    By what standards? Russian, of course
    . "
    True there, but remember the Russians had far more sniper experience than us when these sniper rifles were being developed....

    "Their snipers had to use the SVD since there was no other option for them, therefore by default it became a sniper rifle.
    "Good enough" is just not optimal in most cases
    .
    " Really, do you see any other militaries' snipers running around with other than issued rifles: The M-21 was the first sniper rifle I trained on and it was not really a great rifle either, then came the M24, SR-25, Mk.13, M110, M2010- I have yet to see anything else being used not even a much vaunted Savage. If you want to compare bolt actions to semi auto's then there is no real comparison. What I am hearing here is personal ideas not reality...

    "Warsaw pact had a different vision about everything.Build it cheaply and in great quantities." Yes, and spend money where you have too (SVD) and go cheap where you can (AK series).

    "Most of the AK's had optic side rails but no optics on them. Of course you don't need an optic on your rifle if you are taught to spray the enemy in auto mode or your type of ammo is ineffective beyond 300m." Most AK's had optics rails on them that is news to me when did that start? It seems to me sometime around 1990 +/- (AK-74M iI believe) just as the cold was was ending 43 some odd years after the AK was issued did rails become prevalent. I have seen just about as many Soviet snipers just blazing away from the hip; side-by-side in lockstep with their AK armed brethren smashing through the Fulda gap whilst overrunning the 11th ACR.....as I have optic rails on AK's from the Soviet era.

    This makes my head hurt I am going to go drink now....and wait patiently for M-Lok accessories for my TIGRS and NDM's, I am sure it will be a long wait.
    Ok compare SVD to Knights SR25, which is considered a DMR
    Last edited by Arik; 02-14-2020 at 06:46 AM.

  15. #29
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    Any rifle a sniper is using is a sniper rifle. Whether a rifle is purpose built for sniping or not is a different story. Many sniper rifles had a scope thrown on a regular rifle that was more accurate than others of the same kind and called a sniper rifle: Garand, 1903, Mosin Nagant 91/30. Whatever rifle Carlos Hathcock used while sniping would be considered a sniper rifle. There are a lot of dead Germans shot by Russian snipers using Mosin Nagants.

    Chuck Mawhinney used an M14 to take out 16 Viet Cong in 30 seconds, all head shots, in the dark.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/one-...arkness-2016-2
    Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. I spent it all on guns and ammo.

  16. #30
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    I happen to have shot both quite extensively so I can tell you they are very close in accuracy but I have never heard the SR-25 referred to as a DMR it was always referred to as a sniper rifle the DMR designation is a relatively new term in the military and never heard that term used in reference to a SR. I've seen SR-25's new out of the box shoot and SVD's of indeterminate barrel condition shoot also very well and very poorly.

    I was involved in some accuracy testing of brand new MK11 Mod0s (SR-25s) some time ago and they happened to shoot somewhere between about .75 MOA to 3 MOA it think the worst example was around 3.5-4MOA from a mechanical cradle (Most shot between about 1.5-2.5 MOA w/M118LR if memory serves correctly) while about 10% of the sampling shot 1MOA or less-now put M80 ball through it and really see it open up. These were in the hands of snipers and they were complaining of terrible accuracy in comparison to their issued M24s (apparently none of them had ever fired an M21 or they would have kept their mouths shut).

    My experience with SVD types is with Extra, Match, 7N1 and standard ball (Lead and steel core both civilian and military) and it runs the gamut from .9 MOA to about 3.5" MOA fired from the supported prone @100m and no mechanical cradle like was available for the SR-25's. I have maintained for years that given a new SVD and 7N1 ammunition it would give an SR or M110 SASS (The SR is considered by many who have had both SR's and M110's to be the more accurate of the two) a run for it's money out to 600m and a decent accounting of itself out to about 800m.

    Field Accuracy standard for an SVD @ 100m (109.361yds) was to put 4 shots in a maximum of an 8cm (3.150" / 3.298MOA) circle on the range before it was considered non-serviceable- many shoot well better than that most in my experience are sub 2" guns with many floating in the 1.25"-1.5" with good ammunition with a decent bore condition.

    If you have a decent optics mount available and better glass it will do far better than many think.

    By way of comparison take a SR-25 and put a 1960's produced K4 4Xweaver scope on it and shoot it against a SVD and see the difference a 2-10x leupold, 10x M4 scope makes...

    Now am I saying that the SVD is a better gun, not really at all it just is not as bad as some think. It is still a sniper rifle regardless of whatever claptrap people seem to spout and think is in vogue. Is it the greatest no, is it outdated? definitely getting there. I have never maintained that is was the greatest or even in the top five. but I wonder how much better it can be made before you reach the point of diminishing returns.
    "odio vitae semper dissolubilis"

    "Ludo mentis sciem"

    "Senecta aetas viresque, atque perfidium expugnat"

    "sic semper purgamentus Yugo kalashnikov! Tempus orbem ad excoquam eorum et dimittetur eis!"

 

 
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