Ammo Selective Pistols
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Thread: Ammo Selective Pistols

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    Ammo Selective Pistols

    Just to see how prevalent and realistic my mindset on this issue is, a few months back, I bought a used handgun who's design I really like on gunbroker. I was initially quite happy with it, as I had some bad luck reliability wise with another similar one I got a while back. This 2nd gun had decent reliability with most brands of ammo that I tried, but after the range trips started adding up, I noticed some consistent hiccups going on with it. I figured I be patient enough about this, to really rule out some things I might be doing wrong that might be the cause. Eventually I think I narrowed it down to poor primer strikes. With most ammunition the hammer seemed to do it's job good enough to send the rounds down-range, but with NATO style ammunition, I would consistently have problems where the hammer dropped, and nothing happened, often times repeatedly on the same round. With some NATO style ammo it was only maybe 1-2 times out of every 50 rounds, but with others it was more like every 3rd-4th round. After noticing the NATO ammo related problems, I did try out some steel cased ammo in it, and found it to jam almost constantly with that (extraction failures), but that didn't bother me quite as much as it not at least functioning with any brass ammo.

    I kind of got annoyed by that since I figure it's not too much to ask of a gun to at least shoot any brass cased ammo reliable, even if it was only about $300 I had spent on getting it. I got in contact with the dealer who I bought it from, to send it back and have him look at it. Initially he seemed really reasonable about it considering it had been 2 months since he sold it to me, but somehow once he got the gun, he kept sending me these updates where he'd shoot 1 magazine of some ammo I never mentioned having problems with, followed by him telling me he had no issues with it. I kept asking him, ok, but have you tried any 3 of these NATO brands (with links even provided on what exactly I talked about), and he kept saying he would look around for them. 2 weeks passed and I finally got kind of tired of his meaningless updates with ammo I didn't mention having problems with, and told him I really feel like he's just trying not to find the type of ammo I was having troubles with, and things went downhill from there between us. I'm still waiting on him refunding me my money (apparently he was going to do it when he got back from the SHOT show), and he doesn't want to ever do business with me again (at this point I can't say I'm upset about that as long as he gives me back my money soon).

    So while waiting on my refund, I started looking around for another potential type of pistol to get instead of that one (since he's pretty much the only one selling that type for reasonable prices nowadays). I found some from a big online dealer and decided to ask them about their return policy if their guns do the same, and after elaborating on their return policy, they mentioned it's not uncommon for one gun to not work with specific ammo, while another one does.

    So this is what this post boils down to. Is it a realistic assumption to make, that if a regular caliber (not 22lr) pistol is allegedly working properly, that even for about $300, it should at least be able to reliably shoot any factory brass cased ammo? In other words, if it doesn't, it seems to me to be a faulty gun? Or is it really a case of expecting too much for $300? Before I bought that gun, I got me a cheap (but new) little Ruger in 9mm as well, for $250 and that thing has eaten just about everything. It too has jammed, but only on rare occasion, and it actually shoots the steel cased stuff about as good as the brass so far. I know in a SHTF situation you do want to have a quality firearm, where you don't have to hope you come across the right type of ammo, but seriously, why would it be too much to expect even somewhat cheaper guns to fire brass ammo reliably?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haris122 View Post
    Just to see how prevalent and realistic my mindset on this issue is, a few months back, I bought a used handgun who's design I really like on gunbroker. I was initially quite happy with it, as I had some bad luck reliability wise with another similar one I got a while back. This 2nd gun had decent reliability with most brands of ammo that I tried, but after the range trips started adding up, I noticed some consistent hiccups going on with it. I figured I be patient enough about this, to really rule out some things I might be doing wrong that might be the cause. Eventually I think I narrowed it down to poor primer strikes. With most ammunition the hammer seemed to do it's job good enough to send the rounds down-range, but with NATO style ammunition, I would consistently have problems where the hammer dropped, and nothing happened, often times repeatedly on the same round. With some NATO style ammo it was only maybe 1-2 times out of every 50 rounds, but with others it was more like every 3rd-4th round. After noticing the NATO ammo related problems, I did try out some steel cased ammo in it, and found it to jam almost constantly with that (extraction failures), but that didn't bother me quite as much as it not at least functioning with any brass ammo.

    I kind of got annoyed by that since I figure it's not too much to ask of a gun to at least shoot any brass cased ammo reliable, even if it was only about $300 I had spent on getting it. I got in contact with the dealer who I bought it from, to send it back and have him look at it. Initially he seemed really reasonable about it considering it had been 2 months since he sold it to me, but somehow once he got the gun, he kept sending me these updates where he'd shoot 1 magazine of some ammo I never mentioned having problems with, followed by him telling me he had no issues with it. I kept asking him, ok, but have you tried any 3 of these NATO brands (with links even provided on what exactly I talked about), and he kept saying he would look around for them. 2 weeks passed and I finally got kind of tired of his meaningless updates with ammo I didn't mention having problems with, and told him I really feel like he's just trying not to find the type of ammo I was having troubles with, and things went downhill from there between us. I'm still waiting on him refunding me my money (apparently he was going to do it when he got back from the SHOT show), and he doesn't want to ever do business with me again (at this point I can't say I'm upset about that as long as he gives me back my money soon).

    So while waiting on my refund, I started looking around for another potential type of pistol to get instead of that one (since he's pretty much the only one selling that type for reasonable prices nowadays). I found some from a big online dealer and decided to ask them about their return policy if their guns do the same, and after elaborating on their return policy, they mentioned it's not uncommon for one gun to not work with specific ammo, while another one does.

    So this is what this post boils down to. Is it a realistic assumption to make, that if a regular caliber (not 22lr) pistol is allegedly working properly, that even for about $300, it should at least be able to reliably shoot any factory brass cased ammo? In other words, if it doesn't, it seems to me to be a faulty gun? Or is it really a case of expecting too much for $300? Before I bought that gun, I got me a cheap (but new) little Ruger in 9mm as well, for $250 and that thing has eaten just about everything. It too has jammed, but only on rare occasion, and it actually shoots the steel cased stuff about as good as the brass so far. I know in a SHTF situation you do want to have a quality firearm, where you don't have to hope you come across the right type of ammo, but seriously, why would it be too much to expect even somewhat cheaper guns to fire brass ammo reliably?
    Yes it's true that there is going to be some ammo your gun won't like. Sometimes it's something common other times you'll never know because that potential ammo is not available for whatever reason. Not all ammo is made identical. Thicker cases, smaller cases, bullet design....etc...etc..

    Having said that it does matter what gun, not so much the price. People get hung up on price when that doesn't mean anything when compared to function of the gun.

    NATO and steel case ammo have hard primers. Typically they work better with hammer fired guns but not necessarily. Chances are you just have a worn hammer spring. Also might depend on the gun. Possibly some older commercial guns just weren't meant for hard primers

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    Depends... was it a Glock or was it a Llama?

    The downside with buying used guns is you have nooo idea what it went through before you got it in your hands. Anything from just age and pure use all the way to abuse and knuckleheads who fancy themselves gunsmiths. The quality of the firearm matters too. Rough chambers, weak springs, broken extractors, damaged firing pin..

    usually its under-powered or inconsistent ammo that gives people headaches. What were you using? Some people have issues with hard primers in milsurp ammo, but its not a widespread problem.

    But no, you shouldn't have to worry about ammo choice in SHTF. Set the bar low and if it eats cheap underpowered steel case stuff, it should do fine with everything else.
    "There really is something broken between your ears. You know this, yes?" - Redbear

    Closed captioned for the drinking impaired. Wait...

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    The handgun in question was a Yugoslavian CZ-99. I'm not sure if I could've even found a new hammer spring for it, and I'm not sure how easy they are to change out. I was hoping the dude would just let me "trade up" for another one that actually worked with the NATO ammo too, as I still really love the features the design has, especially for left handed shooters like me. I mentioned to him that I wouldn't mind putting a bit more money up just as long as it was a reasonable amount, and the other gun worked with the NATO ammo as well, but he just kind of ignored that idea, and I eventually started getting impatient and feeling like the dude was just dancing around the issue, and pointed out to him that it's perplexing to me that he cannot find any of the NATO ammo I mentioned when I can find at least 3 different places within 15 miles of me carrying at least one of the brands. And things soured quickly after that. As far what ammo, I tried Winchester 124 grain NATO in it (you'd think that's not that hard to really find), MEN 124 grain NATO, and Sellier and Bellot 124 grain NATO (that one had a green sealant on the primer too, and the CZ-99 would fail to fire that one like every 3-4 rounds). I thought at first it was just bad ammo, but then I tried out the same round that didn't fire 2-3 times in the CZ-99, in the little Ruger, and it would go off first time every time. The steel cased stuff that I tried was Winchester USAForged 115 grain ones. Those shot real bad in it, but just fine in the Ruger again.

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    This is why I stick with known brands for serious use. I would sell that and move on. You can find police trades for $300 - $400.

    I can see not being able to get NATO ammo locally. We have a lot of great stores here and they stock tons of guns and ammo but you'll rarely find one brand of NATO ammo, let alone 3

    Speaking as a lefty ambidextrous controls are nice but shouldn't be a selling point

    https://aimsurplus.com/leo-trade-in-...-3-9mm-handgun


    https://aimsurplus.com/smith-wesson-...ct-9mm-handgun
    Last edited by Arik; 01-25-2019 at 11:54 AM.
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    Speaking as a lefty ambidextrous controls are nice but shouldn't be a selling point
    I know but if you can get a functioning one with all those things, and an ambidextrous decocker too, those are some pretty sweet features that will really come in handy if you got little time to think about things. And the brand might not be well known here, but in ex Yugo countries it's considered a good brand so I figured it should be a good gun.

    I can see not being able to get NATO ammo locally. We have a lot of great stores here and they stock tons of guns and ammo but you'll rarely find one brand of NATO ammo, let alone 3
    Maybe I was a bit harsh, but still I figured the guy had 2 weeks to find the stuff. Around here I can't find the MEN or Sellier and Bellot, but the Winchester NATO is pretty common. Walmarts around here even sell the 150 round packs of it. And he outright refused to try out the steel cased ammo saying it's what people use for throwaway guns. That struck a dodgy tone with me too.
    Last edited by Haris122; 01-25-2019 at 12:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haris122 View Post
    I know but if you can get a functioning one with all those things, and an ambidextrous decocker too, those are some pretty sweet features that will really come in handy if you got little time to think about things. And the brand might not be well known here, but in ex Yugo countries it's considered a good brand so I figured it should be a good gun.



    Maybe I was a bit harsh, but still I figured the guy had 2 weeks to find the stuff. Around here I can't find the MEN or Sellier and Bellot, but the Winchester NATO is pretty common. Walmarts around here even sell the 150 round packs of it. And he outright refused to try out the steel cased ammo saying it's what people use for throwaway guns. That struck a dodgy tone with me too.
    I'm left handed, I use Sigs. It's fine. Decocker is a concern only when there is no longer a threat and at that point it doesn't matter what hand, finger, toe or stick you use to decock. But yes it is easier, just depends on priorities. Reliability and easily found parts for me beat ambidextrous controls everytime.

    They might be considered good in Yugoslavia but we're not in Yugoslavia. Cave made guns are considered good in Pakistan and Afghanistan does it mean you'll be buying one based on theirs use?

    Let me guess it was a former Israeli surplus gun?
    Look, you bought a gun for serious use you should use common sense logic to select one. Assuming it's already something that fits your price range and carry needs....
    -How common is it?
    -How common are the parts?
    -Do parts need fitting or do they plug and play
    -How common is it to gunsmiths should something break?
    -Is there support for it?
    -How common is the ammo?
    -How common are mags?
    -Has it been thoroughly tested to Western standards. A big plus if it has a history of military/police use. Or is it built to the same standard as their issued guns?

    Based on this I carry Glock. Common gun, known quality, parts are everywhere and inexpensive. All gunsmiths know how to work on them and there is no fitting required should I have to change something out. They are issued to militaries and police around the world with a known track record for reliability. I have other guns that are just as good, just as reliable but they either need hand fitting or parts aren't commonly found
    Last edited by Arik; 01-25-2019 at 01:01 PM.
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    Pistols, rifles, guns, etc. Some can be finicky about ammo, but I'm talking ammo other than FMJ. Soft points, hollow points, possibly TMJ, etc. Most well known surplus or commercial pistols 9mm and above should not have problems with FMJ ammo and if it's a case of the harder NATO primers then a gunsmith should go through it very well and possibly replace parts. Most manufacturers recommend replacing certain parts after so many rounds. Militaries generally have armorers that check and replace when needed.
    As previously mentioned, it's rather difficult to depend or rely a lot on a used gun of any kind. Just the same as used vehicles. Plenty of folks don't know how to take care of anything. Then there are those whom read how to take care of something from the internet. Might rather have something that wasn't taken care of at all compared to something that was taken care of with inferior parts, the wrong lubrication, or careless assembly. Some of that shit could be quite dangerous matter of fact.
    Steel cased ammo-
    in my opinion, use at your own risk in some firearms. Plenty of firearm manufacturers do recommend against it. Surplus firearms or those designed to use steel cased ammo stand out from the crowd here of course.
    There appear to be some ammunition manufacturers that have gone to offering brass cased ammo that are more well known for manufacturing steel cased ammo. Wolf is one of them. I think it's just to appease picky Americans that would never put steel case ammo through their 1911A1 or AR15. But does that brass cased ammo meet SAAMI specs??
    Made in Turkey? They like Americans right? Okay, sometimes they might. They basically just want our $$.
    My suggestions for anyone and especially if you want your pistol and ammo to be very reliable and dependable. Whether it be for SHTF, survival over a weekend n the outback or on the river, camping, concealed carry, home defense, etc.
    *Buy new from a reputable manufacturer well known for warranty and customer service
    *Be ready to refurbish something purchased second hand (used)
    *Buy something that has been factory refurbished (CPO SIGs are great)
    *Buy a Glock new or used and don't worry about anything other than buying ammo. Always reliable and they'll eat anything.
    *Learn about your particular firearm and troubleshoot things. Pistols especially depend on several things in order to work properly. Weakest link is generally the magazines, next is springs. most items are replaceable. Some replacement parts can be difficult to find depending.

    Reputable gun dealers should also stand behind what they sell for at least 90 days and ruling out customer abuse or neglect. I personally wouldn't sell a firearm to anyone that I wouldn't buy myself or depend on. If I can't make it so, I'd much rather part it out as it belongs in nobody's hands if in disrepair. I'd stay away from standard pawn shop pistols and/or flea market guns such as 25ACP and 32auto. Things such as Jennings or Bryco etc.

    OP- I hope you get your refund soon. Use it wisely once obtained. Remember, we can save a penny here and a penny there, but when we do the damned IRS is there to tell you half of it is theirs. You just can't come out ahead unless you're a good bullshitter or an engineer.
    If you ever need any gunsmithing or repair work done just PM me. I'll either tell you I can or I can't. One of these days I should just get my FFL. Been thinking about it for the past 20 years or so. I'm finally out in the middle of nowhere with no competition.
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    A google search yielded this:
    https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns...ke-/36-168985/

    "not common at all. Order a new hammer spring for a P226/229 and install it. Easy as pie"-dwcopple

    I'd double check before buying anything, but there you go.
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    Thanks Bildobaggins. Been trying to respond via my phone and that shit is not as easy as I thought. Damn it, why didn’t I do that before I sent the gun back. Now I’ve got to see if dude is going to send me the gun back instead of the money.

    And Arik, before I saw the reply from Bildobaggins, I went out and looked around. I wound up getting me S&W M&P like the one you had a link of. Not quite as cheap as that, but still not too bad. If the guy is willing to send me back the gun, I'd still rather keep it and try out the hammer spring replacement that Bildobaggins showed me a link of. If it works I can live with it firing brass only for the price, if not, oh well, I'm not planning on returning the M&P anyways.
    Last edited by Haris122; 01-26-2019 at 12:53 AM.

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    Still waiting on the refund but it looks like the dude didn’t want to bother dealing with me anymore as far as sending the gun back so I won’t find out if the hammer spring would’ve fixed the NATO ammo issue on the CZ-99. I think somewhere down the road I’ll try to get me one like that again, but I’ll have to wait until someone else starts carrying them for a reasonable price.

    More importantly though, I tried the M&P today, shot 150 rounds of steel cased ammo, 50 aluminum cased rounds, about 50 of the regular winchester, and another 150 NATO rounds and had really no issues with it. I had one dud with some wolf steel cased but it was truly just a dud, cause it didn’t go off out of the little Ruger either. I’ll be very happy with it as long as it stays this reliable, especially cause it has a lot of lefty friendly features still.

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    Its always best to fire at least 500 rounds or so through a pistol you intend to carry. This way you can identify any issues with ammo, mags or the pistol itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haris122 View Post
    Thanks Bildobaggins. Been trying to respond via my phone and that shit is not as easy as I thought. Damn it, why didnít I do that before I sent the gun back. Now Iíve got to see if dude is going to send me the gun back instead of the money.

    And Arik, before I saw the reply from Bildobaggins, I went out and looked around. I wound up getting me S&W M&P like the one you had a link of. Not quite as cheap as that, but still not too bad. If the guy is willing to send me back the gun, I'd still rather keep it and try out the hammer spring replacement that Bildobaggins showed me a link of. If it works I can live with it firing brass only for the price, if not, oh well, I'm not planning on returning the M&P anyways.
    Good deal and now you can buy cheap(er) mags and have access to plenty of aftermarket parts if you so choose! And you have a large base of gunsmiths who know how to work on the M&P, not to mention S&W, should something go wrong!

    Also, what JoeMomma said!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    Based on this I carry Glock. Common gun, known quality, parts are everywhere and inexpensive. All gunsmiths know how to work on them and there is no fitting required should I have to change something out. They are issued to militaries and police around the world with a known track record for reliability. I have other guns that are just as good, just as reliable but they either need hand fitting or parts aren't commonly found
    This, absolutely 100 times this.
    If you want to hear bang instead of "Click" you better buy a Glock.
    If you don't want a Glock, buy a big knife and go practice some Martial Arts four times a week.

 

 

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