Great info Just added it to my Polish Rifle folder Thanks for the Info
In one of WTS topics with offer of Polish AKMSŁ were a discussion about correct name of the carbine.
I've checked a lot of Polish Miliatry manuals since 1963 - user, service/repair manuals, parts catalogs etc. and nowhere there is an AKMSŁ name!
At first here are the names which are in the manuals:
- pmK - pistolet maszynowy Kałasznikowa - Klashnikov submachine gun - from the principals of shooting guide from 1963,
- ksK - karabinek samoczynny Kałasznikowa - Kalashnikov selfloading/automatic carbine - supplement of service/repair in addition to NSP-2 from 1965,
from manual from 1988:
- AK - milled receiver, wooden stock,
- AKP - milled receiver, wooden stock, thritium night sights,
- AKS - milled receiver, underfolder stock,
- AKM - stamped receiver, wooden stock,
- AKMŁ - stamped receiver, wooden stock, side rail,
- AKMŁP - stamped receiver, wooden stock, szyna boczna do celownika, thritium night sights,
- AKMS - stamped receiver, underfolder stock,
- AKMSN - stamped receiver, underfolder stock, side rail,
- AKMSNP - stamped receiver, underfolder stock, side rail, thritium night sights,
- kbkg wz. 1960 - milled receiver, wooden stock, grenade launcher
- kbkg wz. 1960/72 - milled receiver, detachable wooden stock, grenade launcher.
I don't remember a nick of a member who posted this pic as a proof that I'm wrong:
But I've posted similiar topic on Polish forum and there is a guy who mentioned that in his unit in middle 1970's standard AKMS carbines were upgraded which allowed them to use night vision optic sights.
When you will look at the photo above and look for some other similiar pics with "AKMŁ" letters you will notice that there is no space/gap between AKM and Ł which is in the name of AKMS Ł or there in is no dash in Polish nomenclature.
I think that the name of the NV NSP-3 or other sights is wrong because if they had original paired carbines with optics with AKM as AKMŁ and soldiers who upgraded AKMS by added an side rail thinked that AKMS-Ł is propper name for it.
Believe me thinks like that happens - for egsample propper name for BERYL is 5,56 mm kbs wz. 96 BERYL and in my unit I've got folks who wrote "ks" instead of "kbs".
Or Mini Beryl in version "C" is called as "BERYL-C" which is wrong because BERYL in "C" version is a stanard carbine/rifle in "C" setup - the "C" is not a name of subcarbine version - but someone above us wrote something like that in papers and it is "BERYL-C".
Also I've spoke with a lieutenant colonel who try to tell me that 9 mm WIST 94 pistol is made by "Łucznik" - he was very surprised when I've told him that it was made by PREXER company in the city of Lodz/Łódź - far away from Radom city.
Great info Just added it to my Polish Rifle folder Thanks for the Info
11th air assault div 63 65 1st bn abn 8th cav 1st cav vietnam 65 66 11th special forces group 70-74 major sks and ak collector ammunition collector
The ‘AKMSL’ are like that from the factory, they are not upgraded AKMS’s that just had a rail added.
The upgrade could be possible in regimental or division gunsmith workshops/armories.
In thoese places were repaired all the weapons and if they couldn't do that weapons was send to the manufacturer.
None can explain why in all of the manuals there is no such thing as AKMSŁ but there is AKMŁ and AKMSN.
And why there is "N" but not "Ł" in underfolder?
A lot of you heard about AKGN - there is also no such thing but it is widley used nake for kbkg wz. 1960 and wz. 1960/72 and also this is in official use but you won't find it in any manuals!
I saw an overview board where there was an AKMŁ and AKMSN or AKMSN and AKMSŁ carbines with different NV scopes but as I remember well thoese sights weren't named - just differences between them on pics.
We've got PK and PKM machine guns and PKMN - as I know and remember there was NSPU NV scopes paired with them.
So I've made a conclusion that:
- AKMŁ - was paired with NSP-3,
- AKMSN - was paired with NSPU,
- AKMS paired with NSP-3 was called AKMSŁ.
But that thing is not mentioned in any manual - guns or NV optics.
I've checked NSPU manual from 1981 and there is mention that it can be used with:
- AKM with nightvision,
- AKMS with nightvision,
- PKM with nightvision - (PKMN),
- RPKS with nightvision - (RPKSN),
- and few others.
So it could be that "N" is from NSPU sight and "Ł" is from NSP-3 sight but it still doesn't explain that there is no such thing in other manuals as AKMSŁ.
Didnt happen. Rifles were mated with a scope at the factory. The scopes s/n is on the rail of the rifle, and the rifles number is on the scope case. Also, each scope was tested and zeroed at the factory with its assigned scope(we know this because of the paperwork in the scope cases). Also none of the AKML/AKMSN/AKMSL specific parts are in the armorers kits.
Hey look, it says AKMSŁ on the paper too.
Last edited by wingnut308; 11-07-2019 at 07:09 AM.
It is still a mystery.
But it's getting a little bit lighter because everywhere where is AKMSŁ it is paired with NSP-3 optics.
But I can't find how does sights and letters was designated to carbines/scopes.
During PRL we had gunsmiths in almost every unit and laso regional military gunsmiths workshops (called OWU - Okręgowe Warsztaty Uzbrojenia) who made big repairs - and they could make thoese upgrades from factory parts - not from the spare parts.
What is quite interesting in your pic is the bottom "dla 6P1Ł i 6P4Ł" but in the big parts index is "6P1 i 6P4" (AKM and AKMS) and version with NV is just written as "AKM/AKMS z noktowizorem":
Things like that could be possible - even if side rails were mounted in ZM Łucznik but scopes could be paired even in units - add a number is nothing big.
Finding NSPU sheet with paired AKMSN will be great because that would tell us that the letter "Ł" or "N" was dependable from NV scope.
But it is still not clear why in user manual, repair manual etc. there is AKMŁ and AKMSN and not a single mention of AKMSŁ - can you explain this?
I think that we've found a solve of the names AKMSŁ and AKMSN - it is from soviets.
The codes of every gun (firearms, artillery etc.) have theirown codes - I can't read russian letters, I actually hate them but a gun with NSP-3 sight has designated code with "Ł" and NSPU is with code "N":
??????? ?????? (????, ??? ? ??.)
There is only a mistery why there is no mention about this in the Polish manuals.
One of Polish board users said that there was a lack of newer NSPU scopes and we've had our own made (I'm not sure that we ever made them) or as I think that we've got stockpile of older NSP-3 scopes and started adding them to the rifles - or soviets has them and gave them to us instead of NSPU.
There we've got something like AKMŁ with NSP-3 - we've stared produceing AKMS a little bit later so the night vision/side rail version of underfolder was also make later and we've got to give them new NSPU scopes so all the manuals etc. were ready for AKMŁ with NSP-3 and AKMSN with NSPU.
But for the lack of NSPU scopes we need to paired them with older scopes so there is AKMSŁ.
find an elaboration/script from Centrum Szkolenia Uzbrojenia i Elektroniki from 1996 where they put versions of AK rfiles:
7,62mm kbk AK z kolbą drewnianą
7,62mm kbk AK z kolbą metalową
7,62mm kbk AK z kolbą drewnianą z NSP-2
7,62mm kbk AK z kolbą metalową z NSP-2
7,62mm kbk AKM
7,62mm kbk AKMS
7,62mm kbk AKMŁ z NSP-3 (AKMSŁ z NSP-3)
7,62mm kbk AKMSN z ASPU (AKMN z NSPU)
7,62mm kbk AKMSP, AKMP
7,62mm kbk AKMS z tłumikiem dżw. PBS-1
7,62mm kbkg wz 60
7,62mm kbkg wz 60/72
7,62mm kbk AKM z granatnikiem podwiesz. wz 74.
So the use letters "Ł" or "N" is dependable from the NC scope.
Last edited by KAPRAL-POLAND; 11-09-2019 at 10:42 AM.
Wingnut is right, The trunnion prefix from two rifles made at same time at the same factory is different for the night vision model AKM and AKMS L or N or whatever it is. It left the factory with the rails.
My polish AKM manuals were so hard to find, and I don't have the damn gun anymore. Can you get me a Tantal manual, not a Beryl manual?
Rare/unique original barrel kits
East German Barrels
I have rare parts/kits and plenty original Russian paint to trade.