Chinese PLA Internal Issue Type 56 with L & D Selector Markings - Page 2
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Thread: Chinese PLA Internal Issue Type 56 with L & D Selector Markings

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Original AK View Post
    CIRCA 1967 CHI-COM TYPE 56 WITH CHINESE CHARACTERS AND L & D SELECTOR MARKS?

    This photo shows the serial number, 11001943. If you accept that adding the first two digits of a Chinese Type 56 serial number to 1956, you conclude this particular AK was made circa 1967 (1956 plus 11) . Pinyin was being widely taught in China at this time.

    I have a Vietnam bring back Type 56 with a 10 million serial range. The selector markings are Chinese characters.
    Just addressing these two statements. I do not subscribe to the 1956 plus leading serial number equals date manufactured. If you take a real deep dive in the T56 in a Half, T53 and T54, and all the machining and markings, you'll conclude that this is incorrect. It should be model number + leading serial number (millions place) - 1. Now there are other theories about the actual methodology leading to this conclusion but they arrive at the same end game. Sites like Yooper still believe in the old theory but that has really been debunked with definitive evidence. I would think the Type 56 follows the exact same pattern as the above mentioned platforms (why wouldn't it) but unfortunately there are limited numbers of good, intact original Type 56 examples to do detailed analysis like the above mentioned weapons. So in the 11M example you provided it would be as follows:

    1956 + 11 - 1 = 1966

    Your next point: possibly the same rifle as you suggest but as a data point, I have dozens of good documented examples and all of the 11M series rifles I have in my documentation all have Chinese character selector markings, likewise for 10M series. Not talking about any kits but actual museum of Vietnam papered examples. I do have a bunch of 12M series that have L/D markings though. Not saying your example isn't the same rifle, it may very well be but just stating what I factually know for another data point for you. Not saying that there may not be an 11M series with L/D selector markings, it's just I personally have not seen one. You probably could write the author of that book and inquire where that example is from and if it is the same rifle. Then you would have no doubts.
    Last edited by Bunker9939; 01-10-2016 at 07:06 AM.
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  2. #17
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    Thanks Bunker9939 for your input. All conversation is valued here; this is how we all learn.

    I trust your database since I do not have one. Could you write more about it? I wrote circa 1967 to hedge my bets because I do not really know.

    Since I have not done the research you have done, nor read the posts you have, what about the theory that in year 1, 1956, they started at serial number zero and went up to 1 million; then at the beginning of 1957, they added 1 million and another million each year.

    It would be nice if the Chinese would open their books like Izhmash and Tula have (not). In any case, I think we are in the ballpark with the dating system whatever you subscribed to. If it is 1966 that is fine with me. That makes my 11 million Type 56 even earlier, 1965. Is there a thread here discussing this serial number dating system? I have not found one. If not, maybe you should start one. I would enjoy reading it as would others new to the Vietnam era Chinese Type 56.

    As for this particular rifle, if it is an L and D marked 11M, then it is an anomaly. Perhaps a test run given it is apparently the 1943rd one made in that year. I will see if I can get a message to Brayley to settle this question.

    Could you post photos of information about the 12M with L and D markings? That would be great.

    We are looking forward to reading more.

  3. #18
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    The problem with the Type 56 is there are not enough good examples to really draw any reasonable conclusions regarding production dates. That being said, there is a lot of good evidence on the T53, T54 and Type 56 in a Half, with a lot of good examples and thorough analysis. In order to intelligently draw any reasonable conclusions, production numbers are required and we don't have enough documented examples to determine that with any degree of confidence, and frankly there is not enough dedicated interest by any group or community. That is not the case with the weapons mentioned above. One can only assume, which is pure speculation and means absolutely nothing, that the Type 56 would naturally follow the same methodology/pattern as other platforms.

    Not going to go in detail as there are other factors but at the macro level, by observing Chinese serialization practices on the T53 and T54, which actually had the year stamped directly onto the firearm, it is very clear the Type 56 in a Half was no different. The millionths place is simply a (year of production) indicator making a 2m a 1957, a 3m a 1958 etc. Adding the 2 or 3 to 1956 as previously done incorrectly displaces the dating by one year. You have to really dig deep into the various weapons and look at such things as machining, QC markings, fonts, various part progression, etc, etc. Here is a couple of pics I put together of the T53 as very basic reference. Unlike the Type 56, the production date was applied to the weapon and you can see how the serial number correlates to the year of production and follows the pattern mentioned. This subject is hotly debated in many circles as might be expected but for me personally, I did a lot of research with many groups and the evidence supports this claim. That's just me, others can draw their own conclusions.

    T53:


    Here are a few good examples of 12M series Type 56s that you requested.

    Serial Number 1210208x Vietnam bring back. This rifle was picked up off a tributary of the Mekong Delta during the summer of 1968 (July or August). This weapon was featured in 2002 in Small Arms Review. Registered it in November 1968 with a Form 4467.




    Serial Number 12104422 captured by New Zealand troops and registered as a New Zealand Vietnam bring back.




    Serial Number 12134241 - Tokoi example:


    Last edited by Bunker9939; 01-11-2016 at 01:53 AM.
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  5. #19
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    WOW Fantastic. THANKS!

    These photos support the idea that L and D selector marked weapons were not exclusively made for export given the non-clandestine Chinese Type 56 characters on these 12M range Type 56s.

    It also seems from these photos that 12M was the range where the integral folding bayonet front sight assembly was widely produced. I was wondering what year these were made and that seems settled - 1967. Were there any 11M with integral folding bayonet front sight assemblies?

    It would be interesting to find dated photographs of the NVA or VC, or dated photos of captured weapons in the field, showing the folding spike bayonet Type 56 before 1967. Many photos taken in the Tet Offensive, in January 1968, show the spike bayonet Type 56. Since these AKs had to be carried down the Ho Chi Minh Trail it makes sense they were made in 1967 or before.

  6. #20
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    I am now wondering about the selector switch markings on Type 56s made after the 12M range. Did they have L and D or Chinese Characters?

    Is there a pattern? When did they switch back to Characters?
    Last edited by Original AK; 01-12-2016 at 06:55 AM.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Original AK View Post
    WOW Fantastic. THANKS!

    These photos support the idea that L and D selector marked weapons were not exclusively made for export given the non-clandestine Chinese Type 56 characters on these 12M range Type 56s.

    It also seems from these photos that 12M was the range where the integral folding bayonet front sight assembly was widely produced. I was wondering what year these were made and that seems settled - 1967. Were there any 11M with integral folding bayonet front sight assemblies?

    It would be interesting to find dated photographs of the NVA or VC, or dated photos of captured weapons in the field, showing the folding spike bayonet Type 56 before 1967. Many photos taken in the Tet Offensive, in January 1968, show the spike bayonet Type 56. Since these AKs had to be carried down the Ho Chi Minh Trail it makes sense they were made in 1967 or before.
    Here is photos taken from the National Museum of the USMC of an 11M Spiker with Chinese character selector markings for reference. I have some other 11M Spiker (with Chinese character selector markings) examples but none of them are documented bringbacks, but clearly 11M series spiker’s were used in Vietnam.





    This photo was taken at the Kara Village in Cu Chi (Northwest of Saigon) in 1966. I personally have not seen any documents or photos of any spiker’s in country prior to 1966. Not saying they don’t potentially exist, it’s just I haven’t seen any.



    15 July 1967, “Operation Market Time” intercepted a trawler in the Sa Ky River. Once the battered hull of the infiltrator had been refloated, and its cargo removed, both were transported north to Da Nang. Note the T56s Spiker’s appear to be brand new. Too bad we don’t know the serial numbers and markings on these.

    Once the battered hull of the Sa Ky infiltrator had been refloated and its cargo removed, both were transported north to Da Nang, where these photos were taken.

    Remains of the trawler:


    An inventory of the trawler’s cargo, as reported in the US Naval Forces Vietnam Summary of July 1967:



    Photos of the infiltrator cargo taken in Da Nang:





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  8. #22
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    WOW! What a haul!! Thanks for posting these great pics.

    The dating and serial numbers you have posted are instructive. Some observations and thoughts:

    My circa 1965 10M serial range (I double checked) Type 56 has no spike bayonet, just a hooded front sight and Chinese Character selector marks.

    The circa 1966 11M serial range Type 56 above represents the earliest Spiker Type 56. These bore Chinese Characters for the selector switch markings. This makes sense in that these were probably made for internal use by the PLA but probably ended up in Vietnam because of the need by the NVA to equip their infantry.

    The circa 1967 12M serial range Type 56 was produced with the Spiker configuration. However the PRC switched to the Pinyin L and D selector switch markings. Since Vietnam was the nation requesting more AKs than any other client nation and only highly educated Vietnamese could read or write Chinese Characters, but Chinese in the PRC could read Pinyin, it makes sense that the PRC Arsenals switch to the Pinyin L and D, a more client friendly marking for the selector switch.

    Do you know about Type 56 selector switch markings after 12M?

    I know that there was political difficulty between China and Vietnam later in the Cultural Revolution and that China's military exports to Hanoi slowed down. The USSR increased their supplies to Hanoi as a result, hoping to curry favor. In 1979 the situation had deteriorated so much that China an Vietnam had a border war. I suppose it was at this time the Chinese switched back to Chinese Characters for their internal use Type 56.

    When did the PRC begin to produce the stamped receiver Type 56?

    I have a Type 56-1, stamped receiver, with a 16 million serial number range and Chinese selector switch markings. Would this be 1971 production? Others I have seen are 17M range.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Original AK View Post
    ...

    If you have an opinion, or alternative photos of a Type 56 with Chinese Characters and L and D selector marks, please post them.

    Thanks.
    OK then. Here's mine:

    - Please See Post Below for Pictures-

    I refuse to pay a single cent in ransom to those bastards at Photobucket to host my pictures.. They can go straight to hell!
    Last edited by MG34Dan; 05-31-2018 at 05:37 AM. Reason: Fix English.
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  10. #24
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    Dang! Photobucket no workie. Here are my pics now on Postimage:









    Last edited by MG34Dan; 04-16-2018 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Postimage has changed their direct link crap too.
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  11. #25
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    An L & D Chinese M22 Type 56 w/swing down bayonet just sold for $46K at the James Julia Auction. What the hell, it's only money.

    https://jamesdjulia.com/item/53165-11-402/





    Last edited by MG34Dan; 04-16-2018 at 10:08 AM. Reason: More Postimg crap again.
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