Constructive posession not a myth to ATF
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  1. #1
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    Constructive posession not a myth to ATF

    http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/9/1/flor ... -of-an-sbr


    Quote:
    Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR
    August 31st, 2009

    I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrested by an undercover officer when he sought to sell his Heckler and Koch SP89 pistol. But, one can legally sell an H&K SP89, so what’s the twist?

    Unfortunately for Mr. Amador, he was selling the H&K SP89 with the accessories that he collected for it, which included a vertical front grip and a shoulder stock. If Mr. Amador merely possessed the vertical grip, the pistol would have to be registered under the NFA as an AOW. However, because he also had a stock, the pistol would have to be registered as a short-barreled rifle, PRIOR to purchasing or possessing the shoulder stock and/or vertical grip.

    Mr. Amador posted the following on the FloridaGunTrader website,

    Well folks my name is Jesus Amador, you out there might just know me as Digitalage03, i recently met up with a prospected buyer for my sp89 clone pistol, well turns out the guy was a undercover cop and the reason he wanted to meet up with me is because he saw that i was selling the pistol with a stock as one of the accessories, which by the way it was never on the gun and it is legal to own, you just cant install it without a tax stamp, well anyways once i met up with him not only did i get slammed to the ground and had about 7 armed cops (one of which) had a loaded 12ga to the back of my head while on the ground handcuffed they also illegally searched my car and even had the balls to drive off in my car from private property to a public place so they can tear thru it before the towtruck came and got , Well anyone here that know thier laws about this know they are in serious trouble, considering that the basis of all this is a misinformed sherriff called Mike Scott. Anyone out there that would like to help in this matter not because of me, but because if you are SICK and tired off all these power hungry cops screwing with your right feel free to contact me at (239)961-4208 if you want to read the liberal BS version on how it happend google Jesus Amador Lee County. Also just for the record i at all times stated it was a pistol, never had the stock or grip on the pistol, notified the person it was illegal to put on without a stamp and even was going to assist in LEGALLY getting a sbr stamp thru a FFL , and of course i asked about if they where a florida resident as well as if they can legally own a gun. So in short i will have thier ass, any suggestions out there?

    Mr. Amador even posted pictures of his mugshot and more telling, a picture of the SP89 with all accessories in a case. Most damning for Mr. Amador, other than being caught in possession of the SP89 with the shoulder stock and vertical grip is the fact that the case has a cut out for the SP89 to be placed in the case WITH the vertical foregrip, which would seem to connote, contrary to his position, that the SP89 was fitted with the foregrip at one point. For a picture of the case with the SP89 and accessories, see here.

    Lee County Sheriff Mike Scott learned that the SP89 and accessories were apparently listed on Craig’s list, per NaplesNews.com.

    As I stated before, one must be VERY careful when entering into the NFA realm, even where an individual does not assemble the firearm into a NFA configuration because of the legal implications under the doctrine of constructive possession. Constructive Possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at a given time to exercise dominion and control over an object, either directly or through others. US v. Turnbough, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 11886, *6. The government may establish constructive possession by demonstrating that the defendant exercised ownership, dominion or control over the premises in which the contraband is concealed. Id.


    Media article here:

    http://www.winknews.com/news/local/56076612.html

    The ATF and other agencies are widely known to blindside people with "constructive possession" when you own parts that can be combined to violate the NFA. Even if you have no intent to do so.

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    Well I for one feel a lot safer knowing that super dangerous foregrip is off the streets. Thank god he didn't put the shoulder thing that goes up on it.....

    I truely feel like we are winning this fight right now but stuff like this is such gross abuse of power and unbeleivably unnecesary. Where is the public oversight on this stuff????

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    I think the issue with this had something to do with FL law rather than national law - see post #8 here:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=472404

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    Call me crazy, but I think it is also possible that posting a picture of it for sale on a website and basically daring the BATFE and/or law enforcement to do something might have some impact on how this shook out.

    M_P
    Where did you get that banjo?

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    Yes its the FL law that got him, HOWEVER the way that law is written, if he had a rifle with a stock on it that COULD attach to the pistol he would be in violation, meaning I would be in a shitload of trouble in FL with ARs and AR pistols.. I have pistols, and rifles, and all the pistols "may readily be made, operable" with parts off the rifles.. On another note selling it all together was a really really bad idea.
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    So the way the Florida law is worded, I can't possess a rifle and a hacksaw. :roll: Makes a whole lot of sense.

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    link broke
    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." -Thomas Paine

    "Fighting in the rain sucks!"

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rk5n
    So the way the Florida law is worded, I can't possess a rifle and a hacksaw. :roll: Makes a whole lot of sense.
    +1; I see this could be a positive if one of the gun rights groups wants to lawyer up for this guy.

  10. #9
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    he needs to contact the NRA, they have lawyers that live for this shit.

  11. #10
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    Dude needs to shut the hell up about it and lawyer up, not go posting his version on the internet.



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    Get the stamp, that is the lesson I learned. Then again I do not get into NFA. I am not against Class III. In fact I think the whole thing is idiotic. I just do not want to personally go through a bunch of red tape for a gun.
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    constructive posession= THOUGHTCRIME

    THOUGHTCRIME= DOUBLEPLUSSUNGOOD

    MINILUV= DOUBLEPLUSSGOOD
    THINKPOL= DOUBLEPLUSSGOOD

    I BELLYFEEL PARTYMEMBER Jesus Amador, Jr is guilty of CRIMETHINK

    INGSOC and BIG BROTHER are better off and the party member should be UNPERSON or be sent to JOYCAMP!

    YAAAAYYYY THINKPOL
    YAAAAYYYY BB!
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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar
    Dude needs to shut the hell up about it and lawyer up, not go posting his version on the internet.
    That's some good advise.
    He's not going to win this case through public sentiment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar
    Dude needs to shut the hell up about it and lawyer up, not go posting his version on the internet.


    +1million. about the most stupidiest thing you can do is to talk about your case, but posting it on the web, is a super idiotic move, this will come back to bite him in the ass.

    in the immortal words of a famous rabbit. "what a maroon"

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleduece623
    constructive posession= THOUGHTCRIME
    Legally, it seems awfully close to "conspiracy". I am no lawyer, but from my understanding if a guy sells "cocaine" that turns out to be powdered sugar, he is still guilty of conspiracy to violate any number of drug laws. I think their pretty good legal argument is "well, unless you have a rifle that also fits that stock, why do you have it AND the pistol if not to assemble them? What, do you collect stocks? In my mind what we are looking at here is "conspiracy to violate the NFA" which should hopefully carry a slap on the wrist relative to penalties for say making an illegal machine gun. Rule #1...SHUT UP Rule #2....HAVE SOMEONE CALL LAWYER Rule #3 SHUT UP!!!!

    Now, the whole apparent Florida thing of not being able to own two legally purchased firearms because they might be re-arranged into something illegal...THAT is bullshit. That is like saying that a farmer can buy materials to fertilize his fields but no fuel for the tractors.

    :roll:

    JMHO

 

 
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