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Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Classic *New Tests Completed*

24K views 68 replies 12 participants last post by  Pistoleer Pastor 
#1 ·
Test medium was approx 6-8" thick pieces of clay. Yea I know it's not the best medium but it's the first example of recovered Brown Bear HPs. It was free and it just happened to be at the range. Isn't that also the test medium of those nuclear bullets that Lemans makes that will blow someones ass off? :lol:


Anyways on to the results....

Range: 60 Yards Altitude: 6,500ft Temp: 87F
Yugo M70AB2

Brown Bear HP: Had great weight retention, expansion, and penetration. some chucks of fragmentation noted. My first shot did not expand at all. Follow up shots proved the reason for the first round not expanding was the tip getting clogged with the clay. All of the Brown Bear HPs exited the 6-8" pieces of clay and were found up to 6 feet past the clay still hot to the touch. Brown Bear HPs measured .61-.77 in dia smallest to largest measurement.

Brown Bear HP Back Side



Brown Bear HP Front Side








Wolf Military Classic HP: Seemed to fragment better. They expanded and had many small fragments that I didn't bother picking out. The fragments in the pictures were the largest of the fragments. I noticed the lead on the bullets was very brittle unlike the Brown Bear HPs. The lead from the expanded bullets kinda flake off in my hand. WMC HPs had very little weight retention due to fragmentation. Penetration in the clay was unknown. Most recovered bullets were found under the pile of small pices of clay that had been shattered during impact. Since they expanded kinda oblong measurements were .45-78 in dia.

Wolf Military Classic HP Back Side



Wolf Military Classic HP Front Side

 
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#2 ·
Re: Bullets Recovered Today- Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Cla

Xenogy said:
Test medium was approx 6-8" thick pieces of clay. Yea I know it's not the best medium but it's the first example of recovered Brown Bear HPs. It was free and it just happened to be at the range.
yea well but , its still REALLY COOL HUH :grin:

thanks

i think the first shot of the BBB might be the thing to take notice of . notice the flattening and lead extrusion out the heel . thats because all the M67 shape SPs and HPs that dont expand like normal HPs/SPs , yaw just like M67 . clay and plasticine is long known as notorious for expanding bullets unrealisticly since , back in the 70s . if some dont expand hitting clay its a sure no dice in flesh .

water is hard on hollowpoints also but at lest will give results that are what would be considered the "ideal" of what would be seen in flesh , like , the best 10 or 20 examples out of 100 shots .

water = swines flesh = ballistic gello where its effect on RIFLE softpoints (expansion) and FMJ yaw depths and fragmentation are concerned .
 
#4 ·
Re: Bullets Recovered Today- Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Cla

freerangeYODA said:
yea well but , its still REALLY COOL HUH :grin:


Yea it is really cool. I have been messing around with recovering bullets occasionally. I need to get serious and start using better testing equipment. :goof:

What would you suggest for my next test?
 
#5 ·
phone books and newsprint work very well provided ;

1) they are soaking wet with visable free water , drained just before shooting .

2) all or most of the GLOSSEY COLOR pages are removed .

shot like this they show very close to the penetration depth / bullet expansion seen in ballistic gello AND approx. RMS value (70.7%) of temporary cavity size .

i like to use a waterjug set IN FRONT OF the wet paper as the the first inches of penetration is where all the important action happens or starts . fresh water is always the same (for bullet testing purposes) you cant screw it up . the wet paper records what happens after the water .

its rather difficult to measure the effect on the water afterward :wink:

i dont try to define exact wound measurements from this as others have tryed . its enough to see what documented , similar things have done in gello and make a generalized comparison .
 
#6 ·
Ok I got 10 jugs from the recycling center and I have 5 phone books that I can soak over night. Most of the jugs dont have caps on them so I'll have to fabricate somthing. Do I need the jugs completely filled and capped off?

What is a good range I should test this at? Should I set them at 50 yards and hope for the best or should I be optomistic and try for 100 yards? I'm thinking 50 yards first just to make sure they expand.

Hopefully I'll be able to test this tomorrow. If not then this weekend.
 
#7 ·
your in for a shock at how much they SWELL from soaking :eek:

jugs should be pritty full but they dont HAVE to have a cap . how thick are they ? 4 , 5.5" thick jugs should catch most of the ULY 8M3 fragments at 50ft. to 50M . try shooting a group on paper first , right next to the test . that way you know exactly where its hitting . this is very nessisary for 100M to 500M tests as the difference in POI between various brands is great .

do you have other rounds for comparison ? like ? Wolf FMJBT ? Chicom or E.German steelcore ? some common M67 ?

4.5" of water is NOT enough to cause common M67 and 303MK7 to yaw . for those 5.5" is minimum . Wolf FMJBTs will yaw at immersion so a little more than 1" of water will start them , 3.5" farther they are @90deg. and will print nice keyholes most of the way threw your wet ponebooks . M43 steel core needs to penetrate about 10" of water before yaw starts .

you can usually get more than a few hits out of a stack of wet phone books , especially from common rounds . this is another reason i use a water jug in front of the paper , it takes the brunt of the force with HPs and SPs , starts the bullet action and you see what happened / what kinda shape the bullets' in , at that DEPTH ( - the water jug) and deeper .

take your time , be safe , have fun !

oh yea !
the thing here is the ULY HP vs BBBear HP . put a ULY on the Right side and a BBB on the Left side of the phone books , stacked on there side , with one jug in front to take the hit first .

whatever range you think you can do , even 50ft.

or whatever , just take your time , be safe , have fun !
 
#8 ·
Well I'm confident that I can hit a milk jug up to atleast 200 yards iorn sights. I was printing nice groups at that range this weekend.

If I have material I will test
Brown Bear at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards
Wolf Uly HP at 150 and 200 yards.

The milk jugs I have are the 1 Gallon size so they should be good for my tests. I will measure them before going out to make sure they are 5.5 inch just incase.

As far as ammo goes I have 20rds of Chineese steel core in the rainy day
stash. 5 rounds each of Barnaul FMJ, Wolf old style HP, and Winchester FMJ.

Also I'm at 6,500ft. I think at this altitude my frag range is extended a few yards. Bullets loose less velocity up here.
 
#9 ·
from my original notes i reconed the WMC/SapSan/Uly HPs should still at least expand out to 270/300M . thats only at +900ft.elev. though .

shit dude , yer head's in the clouds from where i stand :cool:

i was gonna try a reduced velocity load in the 1300 to 1500 fps range @50ft. . some bullets respond to slower RPMs of reduced loads by reduced expansion but IF i still get solid expansion , fair thee well ...

the farthest test so far was 100M , both from 16.25"B of both box types ... the old blue stripe box averaged 2266fps @55F. and the SAPSAN averaged 2340fps @88F.

both were fragged to smitherines @50m and @100M seemed to , by the looks of the biggest jacket piece , cracked open point first then yawed and fractured the rest of the way while sideways . they still yaw faster than common M67 due to the NO INDENT base + hollow tip shifting the ballance point back farther .

i buzzed into a BBB FMJ bullet tip yesterday --- no space ? and yet , its a different bullet than their regular M67 copy FMJ from the Marlborow Hunter or 3 color boxes , resembling the ULY bullet ONLY externally

go figure :confused:
 
#10 ·
Interesting... So BBB ammo is loaded with different bullets than Barnaul.

The WMC does feel a little hotter than BBB ammo also. So I think the 2300fps or so is about right for them. "Mil-Spec" :goof:

I'm still interested in how well the 8M3 will perform out to 200 yards. So I will still do those tests.

Yea I'm at 6,500ft and I'm not even in the mountains. :grin:

No luck for testing today. I'm also gonna be busy this weekend unfortunately. I'm gonna try to squeeze some time in there somehow.
 
#11 ·
if i can get back into the club , i've got some large , cheap , very flimbsy , square , 5 gal waterjugs left over from Y2K . they are like plastic milk jug flimbsy , ment to be supported by the cardboard box they were in . also a supply of 1gal antifreeze jugs that i like for longrange tests because the example rounds that DONT have early yaw just poke a hole in these , which can then be taped and the jug re-used

either i'll test this WMC/8M3 HP @300M for expansion or retest the WOLF FMJBT ammo @500M and hopefully catch a bullet for sectioning this time or maybe if i'm lucky , both .

OR - like whatever you dont do with it ...

i got quite a backlog of chronoing to do at the same time . its just too much to try and target it all also but i will target some of it separately .
 
#12 ·
I'll leave the 300+ yard shots to you. My range only goes out to 220 yards unfortunately.

I've been really busy this past week but I should be able to get to the range some time this week. My schedule looks good and should be free in the Thurs-Sat timeframe. I'll post the results after the shoot.

I also have some Winchester Ranger 9mm 147gr and 127gr +P+ to test out of my Glock26. They had terrible expansion in the clay when I was testing the 7.62. Hopefully that was just because it was clay.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Test medium was 1 gal jug of water in front of soaked phone books.
Soil


Range: 100 and 200 yards Altitude: 6,500ft Temp: variable 68-73F
Yugo M70AB2


Brown Bear exit 100 yards




Brown Bear bullet lodged in wooden pallet after exiting 1 gal jug and phone book. No expansion but it probably did tumble if you can notice the flattening. It's lodged at about a 20 degree angle

Soil Flesh Smoke



WMC exit at 100 yards



WMC found lodged in wooden pallet at 100 yards expanded nicely

Dog breed Canidae



Another WMC exit at 100 yards




WMC 200 yards entry


WMC 200 yards exit


WMC 200 yards entry



WMC 200 yards exit - Jacket seperated as shown and core kept on going




WMC 200 yards jacket and core. The core was found lodged in the wooden pallet behind the phone book.


WMC 200 yard wound channels. No I didn't flip open the lawyer page on purpose! :lol:



WMC recovered 100 yards left and 200 yards on right.


Photograph Sky Wood Snapshot Child


WMC 3 bullets recovered at 200 yards.

Product Ice cream cone


 
#14 ·
Re: Bullets Recovered Today- Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Cla

freerangeYODA said:
i think the first shot of the BBB might be the thing to take notice of . notice the flattening and lead extrusion out the heel . thats because all the M67 shape SPs and HPs that dont expand like normal HPs/SPs , yaw just like M67 .
Yoda, once again your exactly right; and I was really hoping for somthing out of the Brown Bear. Plain ole M67 with a hollow point just for looks.
 
#15 ·
first of all , let me say those are some mighty fine pics and let me congratulate you on the first meaningfull 200 yard (?) test with the 8M3 HP Uly AND the first sucessful test of the BB Barnaul HP :thumbsup:
if you look your pics of exits with the BBB HP in the begining , you can see the keyholes .

this is MY FAULT :goof: because i didnt tell you that when i do this kind of test i have at least 12 to 14 INCHES of wet paper behind the waterjug which usually adds 5.5 inches to that . sorry :oops: given that , it didnt look like there was much velocity AT ALL left on any of them embeded in the backup wood , even at 200 yards .

dig that crazeey STAR shaped exit near to the last pic with the shed jacket in it :shock:

given ULYs 2330 fps velocity claim , at your altitude and temp it hit the 200yard tests 1830 fps / 920 ft.lbs. energy . at my elevation (900ft.) at standard conditions too 200yards , 1715fps , 810ft.lbs.


if your phonebooks were saturated wet , and they looked it , the outer 'round' compressed edge of the bullet path = ruffly , about 70% of temporary cavity size at that depth .
 
#17 · (Edited)
Well next time I'll have to make sure I have two phonebooks together instead of one. I wasn't expecting them to penetrate that deep. All I can say is I'd hate to be on the recieving end of WMC even out to 200+ yards. I was able to easily hit the milk jug at that range and it tore some stuff up! Now let's what an AR carbine can do at 200 yards. That may be my next test.

I also did tests of the Winchester Ranger ammo from a Glock 26 with 3.46 inch barrel. All the tests I have seen or can find on this ammo are from 4.5 inch barrels. I have seen alot of questions from people asking which load to carry due to the short barrel. The standard response is whichever shoots best for you. Well they both shoot the same for me. Some have said the 127gr +P+ won't get enough velocity or burn all the powder by the time it leaves the barrel. Some say the 147gr won't get enough velocity to expand well. I think they're just a bunch of guesses since nobody has shown tests out of the short barrel.

At approx 8-10 yards: Glock 26 - 3.46 inch barrel

The 127gr +P+ expanded to .69 in dia not including the talons. This is the same performance I have seen from 4.5 inch barrels. The penetration may or may not be as much but they went through a jug of water and were found about 1 1/2 inches from the back of the phone book. The 147gr had about 1/2 inch more penetration but only expanded to .55 in dia not including the talons. About 1 inch from the back of the phone book. This is only two shots but I atleast feel better choosing the 127gr load over the 147gr as that's what I have been carrying the past 4 months or so.

Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ on left
Winchester Ranger 147gr on right

Wood



Wood Ring Jewellery Earrings Fashion accessory

 
#18 ·
The phonebooks were soaked for about 18 hours. All the glossy color pages were removed. I noticed it takes atleast a couple of hours to get every page saturated.

Now that you mention it, I see the keyholes from the BBB exit holes. Cool :grin:
 
#19 ·
Yoda... the local store has one box of Russian white box 7.62x39mm, in a box marked "lead core ammunition made to hunting specifications non corrosive". Headstamp is 711 over 94. It is HP. Worth buying for anything?

Sorry for hijacking but since we are discussing HPs... :oops:
 
#20 ·
Q-gunner2 said:
Yoda... the local store has one box of Russian white box 7.62x39mm, in a box marked "lead core ammunition made to hunting specifications non corrosive". Headstamp is 711 over 94. It is HP. Worth buying for anything?

Sorry for hijacking but since we are discussing HPs... :oops:
the fact.711 762x39 HPs i chronoed was very consistant ammo with low ES/SD . i have 3 over 93 , 3 - 94 , 3 - 95 , '96 3element and '99 3element . the HPBT bullet used in them is photoed in the sticky and doesnt normally expand but , is an accurate , consistant bullet . the variation with the bullets from above listed years of production amouts to only a couple thousandths . this is perfect ammo for SWAPPING out the old HPBT for the likes of Hornadys' .310" , 125gr v-max 1 to 1 or any other bullet for that matter as there is no sealent or heavy crimp . swapping too the shorter flatbase bullets probly requires the addition of powder to keep velocity up to spec .

the FMJs from klimovsk found in the same type plain boxes are a unique 'improved' design and somewhat rare compared to the HPs .
 
#21 ·
Thanks Yoda, I think I'll pick it up even though I can't pull bullets as of now... good storage ammo, or no because the lack of sealant? And also, is it really non corrosive?
 
#24 ·
freerangeYODA said:
Xenogy

how thick were the waterjugs and wet phone books ?

so we know ' at what penetration depth ' were talkin here with the entrances and exits .
Water jugs were 5 - 5 1/2 inch and phone books were 3 inches before soaking. They atleast doubled in thickness after soaking. So approx 11-12 inches total thickness.

The Ranger ammo has a penetration depth of approx 11-12 inches according to tests I have seen online. They were about 1 inch to 1 1/2 inch short of penetrating the phone books. So this would make me think the total thickness of the water jug and soaked phone book is around 12-13 inches.

So between these two observations it was definately somewhere between 11-13 inches total. Sorry dont know the exact thickness. I'll have to be sure to measure next time.
 
#25 ·
freerangeYODA said:
looking at the remains of that 100yd shot with the WMCHP , do you get the impression that it began to open up POINTFIRST then , yawed sideways and fractured the rest of the way ?
Your the expert so I'll let you decide. It looks like the tip may have expanded slightly then yawed fragmenting out of the base of the bullet. After examining the remains I was able to take a much better picture that should give you a better idea. I have no idea what that spare frag piece is. It either split down the side of the bullet, is part of the base, or part of the tip.






 
#26 ·
cool .

in water alone you can figure almost double the penetration as in flesh , gello or saturated paper because , while it has near the same specific gravity and density as gello and swines flesh , it has no structural integrity .

however , in my testing , seeing common FMJ bullets like 762x51 M80 , 303Br MK7 , 762x39 M43 and M67 that have been tested , measured and published in gello , yaw at the same penetration depths and in the same fashion as in water , along with my 762x39 softpoint testing in water , leads me to belive the extra penetration occures AFTER all the important things happen , the bullets mearly COAST TO A STOP a lot farther in water .

with the glossy color pages removed , the penetration depth in saturated phone books / newsprint should = 1 to 1 with gello . adding a water START jug , yours 5.5" thick in front of the paper , shouldnt change the OVERALL (waterjug" + paper") penetration depth any .
 
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