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Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Classic *New Tests Completed*

24K views 68 replies 12 participants last post by  Pistoleer Pastor 
#1 ·
Test medium was approx 6-8" thick pieces of clay. Yea I know it's not the best medium but it's the first example of recovered Brown Bear HPs. It was free and it just happened to be at the range. Isn't that also the test medium of those nuclear bullets that Lemans makes that will blow someones ass off? :lol:


Anyways on to the results....

Range: 60 Yards Altitude: 6,500ft Temp: 87F
Yugo M70AB2

Brown Bear HP: Had great weight retention, expansion, and penetration. some chucks of fragmentation noted. My first shot did not expand at all. Follow up shots proved the reason for the first round not expanding was the tip getting clogged with the clay. All of the Brown Bear HPs exited the 6-8" pieces of clay and were found up to 6 feet past the clay still hot to the touch. Brown Bear HPs measured .61-.77 in dia smallest to largest measurement.

Brown Bear HP Back Side



Brown Bear HP Front Side








Wolf Military Classic HP: Seemed to fragment better. They expanded and had many small fragments that I didn't bother picking out. The fragments in the pictures were the largest of the fragments. I noticed the lead on the bullets was very brittle unlike the Brown Bear HPs. The lead from the expanded bullets kinda flake off in my hand. WMC HPs had very little weight retention due to fragmentation. Penetration in the clay was unknown. Most recovered bullets were found under the pile of small pices of clay that had been shattered during impact. Since they expanded kinda oblong measurements were .45-78 in dia.

Wolf Military Classic HP Back Side



Wolf Military Classic HP Front Side

 
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#52 ·
even without a chronograph , you could judge the velocity of those PMC softpoints too within 50fps by shooting them into waterjugs at 50ft. and comparing too the ones i pictured that impacted @~2000fps , ~2200fps , ~2300fps and the soon to come new pic @~2400fps .

otherwise just use your WMCULYHP or SAPSAN on broadside shots .

its not that the other US made WONT work , its just that you have less than maximum energy so , your range is shortened . ALL the other US made softpoints expanded also , dispite being lower than nominal velocity (excepting REM SP which was ok in that respect) . your range is just shortened .

as for the primer issue , just have 1 or 2 shots in the mag . do you really need more than that hunting hogs or deer ?

yes , you are a pain in the arss however , sometimes its good to have a pain in the arss around to force out clairification that even a pian in the arss can comprehend .

yes , i agree , you shouldnt try any free-style reloading or swapping :lol: you will blow yourself up .
 
#53 ·
Xenogy

from what i can see , the Q load winchester 55grain FMJBT is displaying terminal effect like shown by Fackler for about 2400fps or more as one fragged and one didint and was recoverd flattened and bent . maybe your 14.5"b is cutting into it a bit . it needs velocity to work . so , what muzzel velocity would = 2400/2500fps @90yards ?

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

also , something most read right past is that these effects can vary by as much as + or - 20% , lot to lot . but , i dont believe the winchester Q load would vary THAT much , maybe other NATO ammo would .

man , BHs 68gr OTM ammo is your 14.5"barrels friend . working just like normal HPs there . dont they just use Sierras ?
 
#54 ·
i'd like to show tests with the WOLF FMJBT and an M67 FMJ to but , i dont have any phonebooks or newsprint to speak of :mad: all i got is 15years worth of mich out doors magazines . it takes days for them to soak threw . ALL glossy pages so , no % comparison for penitration depth or temp cavity . just how the bullet goes after penetrating the 'start' water .

oh ,

i just found 1 large phonebook and 1 small . both would be 4"/5" thickwhen soaked . maybe i can come up with somemore ?
 
#55 ·
what we'll see @200m is that the larger , 1.040" long X .310" wide Wolf FMJBT bullet makes a bigger hole , from there on out to ~ , this time with pics :cool:


in earlyer tests like this , the range where 762x39 softpoints = Wolf FMJBT was about 150/175m where the recoverd SPs looked somewhat like those 200yd WMCHPs Xenogy pictured above .
 
#56 ·
well , here it is .

a lot of pics didnt turn out . what happened , i dont know ? photos aint my thing . can still see enough to compare though .

this was what the Winchester SP was shot into @200m . these are just the empties , hardly damaged by being shot . at the time its all i had ;



middle bullet below was the one recoverd from the test above . it just flattened out at the tip and penetrated it all point first . ie , the flattened tip matches holes in the jugs . the expanded bullet on right was recoverd from water jugs @50ft.



now the NEW tests .

BY 200M the old style WOLF FMJBT airtip is BETTER than HPs or SPs from carbines . the "break even" range , being about 150/175m from standard length barrels . closer and bullets that expand and/or fragment are superior . farther and the "sideways" WOLF FMJBT is superior .

this was the testbed ;



the phonebooks and magazines were soaked in that tub for 2 days . water had to be added frequently . they were so swollen i thought i'd never get them out of that tub ! dispite having plenty of room to swim at first . here is a side pic ;



this is the first hit with WOLF POLY FMJBT . due to the lay-of-the-land and bowed pallet on which this all rests , the bullet actully entered the BOTTOM of the water jug , penetrating only about 1.5" of water . still , its at least at 45deg angle at entry into the wetpack . this was the only WOLF POLY FMJBT recovered . the others managed to corkscrew over and out the sides . it penetrated about 13" sideways total . you can see the gapeing phone book entrance .



here you can clearly see where this FMJBT printed on my replaceable aiming square which was standing up like a diamond behind the waterjug so , the bullet tip was pointing @3:00 and the base skidded across the edge of the wetpack @9:00 as the bullet core had already 'SET UP' at about 4.5" penetration deepth , within the jacket , while penetrating the first waterjug .



for those that dont understand what i mean by 'SET UP' , here are the pics of a sectioned WOLF FMJBT recoverd (on the right) from this same waterjug/wetpack test @100M from , like , 1998 or so ;





now its easy to see how these improved bullets can penetrate , mostly , sideways . i've tested this out too 500M . even at that range the bullet remains sideways threw a wet target . with this design , yaw begines at immersion . @100M is 90deg. by 4.5" and @500M is 90deg by 3.5" ! it works no matter the MV or range .

finally , a MEAT hit . but , no recovery . the bullet has weasled out at such an angle it missed the white backer ! impressive entrance after 5.5" of water @200m, ehh ! 14.5" penetration total before exit . as you can see , there is little effect on the waterjug as the bullet isnt sideways 'till 4.5" ;





*THIS pic shows inside the first phonebook representing about 7.5" total penetration . note the clearly defined pressure ridge surrounding the crush hole .



the face of the second phonebook , total , about 9" penetration here . lower hit from the first shot got MUSHED IN resetting for the next shot .



exit on back of the second phonebook , at about 12" penetration , still sideways .



here is another try but , another lost WOLF POLY FMJBT bullet ;



added this 7/19/06 . it got forgoten . also its probly out of sequence .

you can see how the tip maintained its attitude . same as with the hit on the otherside @3:00 but this time on the left side cutting in like a sword slice . this stuff will make lethal "bloodgutters" out of edge hits !

 
#57 ·
the first 7.62x39mm bullets recovered from my 200M tests . left too right ,

WOLF POLY bi-metal FMJBT
LAPUA s.405 (M67 type)
WOLF copper HPBT
WMCULY8M3HP



further shots with each brand showed substantially the same performance .

the WOLF copper HPBTs produced the 2nd smallest holes dispite fragmenting . this carries over to the normal WOLF bi-metal HPBTs also . the empty , lightweight , HP section mearly folding over or breaking off to produce a SMALLER PROFILE and therefore a smaller hole .


this picture shows the smaller , squareish hole made by the WOLF copper HPBT with the nose broken off . the nose and other piece recovered were about halfway in its penetration and in the hole .

the lower hole from the WMCULY8M3HP shown

both these are near the end of their penetration .



here is the waterjug/wetpack entrance holes for Lapua s.405 FMJ . i'm sure its out of sequence from the other tests.

the first thing you should notice is that it has fully penetrated 5.5" of water and yet only poked point first into the wetpack (upper r-hand corner) .



no yaw occured untill , starting at about 7" penetration . pic added and edited 7/19 . it got lost :oops:




the most disruption at 8" to 9" shown below ;



the Lapua penetrated deepest of all , about 17" total and was recovered backwards ;




also made the smallest holes except between 7" to 10" penetration .



those who are familiar with Facklers description of YUGO M67 ammo (same type bullet as Lapua) will think this is much too deep to start yaw so there MUST be something wrong with this kind of test .

jello tests are usually conducted at , like , 20 to 50 FEET not 200M . as the bullet slows greatly with range , its RPMs do not . this increases stability , increasing the bullets penetration depth nessisary for yaw with increasing range . test i've done at 100M showed all the M67 and US67 FMJs (19 out of 20) printed a keyhole on the wetpack when shot threw 5.5" water jugs but , not when shot threw 4.5" water jugs (only 1 or 2 out of 20) .

by 300M its UNLIKELY any yaw would occur threw an average torso with common M67 or US67 .
 
#58 ·
the pics didnt work for these but 1 shot of WMCULY8M3HP at just wetpac @25ft. produced a tremendous cavity and complete frag with the largest piece recovered being a mangled mess - 47gr .

a shot @25ft. with WOLF copper HPBT showed the tip folded over . not broken off like @200M , more flattening and the same small squarish penetration hole .

the Lapua FMJ @25ft. nearly penetrated 23" of wetpac with 2 yaw lobes and was recoverd with more base flattening than shown above in the 200M photo . it looks like the base got PINCHED rather than the whole bullet flattened .
 
#62 ·
Invader_Zim1987 said:
i wanted to see how the remmington copper jacketed .22LR ammo mushroomed before i go small game hunting. i found a rolled up phone book wedged in a coffie can works fairly well. I needed to see if it fragmented badly or not because i dont want a lead tainted rabbit
You won't find any results from a coffee can and phone book combo. The coffee can itself will mess the test up. Also a phonebook that has not been soaked will only clogg hollow point bullets and prove nothing.

I recovered several .45 Golden Sabers and 9mm Ranger bullets shot into a dry phonebook for example. They all clogged and didn't expand. Pretty much just acted like a FMJ.

From left to right: .45 230gr GS, .45 230gr GS, 9mm 127gr Ranger

 
#63 ·
i stumbled on one of the earlyer ULY8M3HPs water test pictures from a member i knew on SKS BOARDS . he wont mind if i post it . this is from like 2002/2003 . 50m distance . he bothered to pic out as many pieces as he could . there is also a 100m water test bullet picture at the link but it never seems to work for me ... his ammo came from the old white w/colored edges Uly box shown in a recent post .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... d03f96.jpg



the only earlyer reference to the Uly HP doing its fragment thing is an article on SNIPERSPARADISE from Fortier , 2000 , about mixing of ballistic jello . its vauge as to whether the later made 8HP FMJBT or 8M3 was used but we know now they work the same .
 
#64 ·
I shot a deer with the Winchester power points back in the mid 90s using a mini-30. Bulet was under the far skin on a lung shot. Had a nice mushroom. Maybe 60 yards. Fell down dead. Did not have the same results using a 130 grain nosler ballistic tip. Blew up on the shoulder and ended up chasing that deer all afternoon before putting it down.
 
#66 ·
I shot a deer in college with a mini-30 using winchester soft points. doe at about 60 yards. broad side. bullet recovered on far side underneath the hide. perfect mushroom. did a great job. might try some wolf mc on friday on some does out of the yugo sks. i have a box of that kilmskov or however you spell it in the basement. bought it a long time ago. fmj.

always wondered about that load. i remember buying some at a gunshow in richmond in around 1993 that had blue paint on the tip of the projectile. had the made to hunting specifications print on the brown box just like the other. great thread here.
 
#67 ·
Well since someone mentioned Deer... First buck this year was at 100 yards with a 150grain SP from my sks. The bullet entered the left ribcage and then turned and went through the entire cavity exiting out of the left rear and did not appear to expand as the exit hole was very small. However every organ was mush and the #145 buck dropped where he stood.
The second of the season was the same... Take that as you will not very scientific but that was from this year and the last 4 I shot with the same 150G SP at 100 yards or less all dropped.
 
#68 · (Edited)
Re: Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Classic *New Tests Completed

I pulled the bullets on some various Wolf Military Classic 124gr HP ammo and noticed some changes. I don't have any of this ammo from any years other than 2006 and 2010, so I'm not sure when the changes occurred. I have just been sitting on my case of the good stuff and blasting the rest. The obvious changes have been going from a lacquered sealed case (2006-2007) to a Polymer sealed case (2008-2009) to a Polymer non-sealed case (2009?-2010). I may not be perfect on those time-lines so they are approximate. I pulled samples from my original 2006 lot and also a mid 2010 and late 2010 lot. Here is what I got.

With the newer production ammo, the bullets appear to have the 8M3 tip with pre-failed cuts. Jacket at the tip appears to be of the same thickness across different lots. Doesn't appear to have changed there. Where I noticed the change is once I pulled the bullet. The 2010 bullets are shorter and lighter weight than 2006. The bullets on the newer production ammo are on average 2gr (grains) lighter than the 2006 ammo we have seen alot of testing from. I also noticed a thicker heel on the jacket of the newer production bullets.

Another thing I have been reading is reports of the newer Wolf Military Classic ammo running atleast 50-75fps slower than the older ammo. Powder charges are generally very consistent with this line of ammo. However the powder charge measurements varied from one lot to another. The 2010 lots I tested, one was half a grain lighter than the 2006 ammo, while another (newer) 2010 lot was on par with the 2006 powder charge.

I think I may have to take the newer ammo out for testing when the weather warms up.

Here is the data and pics.


Plant Metal



Left: 2006 bullet Right: 2010 bullet
Lipstick Pink Cosmetics Lip Ammunition



Left 2010 bullet Right: 2006 bullet

Fashion accessory Beige Jewellery Circle Body jewelry


Edit 11/21/18 I found some data I had recorded but never posted. Small samples but atleast an idea.

VZ-58 15.4" barrel

WOLF MC LOT A418 2010
2450 2442 2398 2368 23802407
WPA MC LOT 3X 2012
2306 2287 2310 2283 22872294
WOLF MC LOT YEAR 2006
2359 2372 2306 2372 2314 23352343
 
#69 ·
Re: Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Classic *New Tests Completed

A new reply to an old but still helpful thread---you can pick up some of those Brown Bear beauties for under $4.00 a box through AIM Surplus. Yes, they can be a bit dirty, but isn't Hoppes No. 9 (or insert your favorite solvent) cologne for real men? While prices for ammo may or may not go up next week like so many are claiming, it seems safe to say that, like everything else, that's the direction we're trending. You can have a lot of fun for less than four George Washingtons!
 
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