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Brown Bear HPs vs. Military Classic *New Tests Completed*

24K views 68 replies 12 participants last post by  Pistoleer Pastor 
#1 ·
Test medium was approx 6-8" thick pieces of clay. Yea I know it's not the best medium but it's the first example of recovered Brown Bear HPs. It was free and it just happened to be at the range. Isn't that also the test medium of those nuclear bullets that Lemans makes that will blow someones ass off? :lol:


Anyways on to the results....

Range: 60 Yards Altitude: 6,500ft Temp: 87F
Yugo M70AB2

Brown Bear HP: Had great weight retention, expansion, and penetration. some chucks of fragmentation noted. My first shot did not expand at all. Follow up shots proved the reason for the first round not expanding was the tip getting clogged with the clay. All of the Brown Bear HPs exited the 6-8" pieces of clay and were found up to 6 feet past the clay still hot to the touch. Brown Bear HPs measured .61-.77 in dia smallest to largest measurement.

Brown Bear HP Back Side



Brown Bear HP Front Side








Wolf Military Classic HP: Seemed to fragment better. They expanded and had many small fragments that I didn't bother picking out. The fragments in the pictures were the largest of the fragments. I noticed the lead on the bullets was very brittle unlike the Brown Bear HPs. The lead from the expanded bullets kinda flake off in my hand. WMC HPs had very little weight retention due to fragmentation. Penetration in the clay was unknown. Most recovered bullets were found under the pile of small pices of clay that had been shattered during impact. Since they expanded kinda oblong measurements were .45-78 in dia.

Wolf Military Classic HP Back Side



Wolf Military Classic HP Front Side

 
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#27 ·
just saw the pics of the 100yd recovered WMCHP . if it wasnt for this NITRODIAL thingee , i'd never see them ...

yeeowwee man , thats one messed up slug :shock:

its similar to what me and the other tester saw back 2003/2004 but , more screwed up ! it took a while to recognize it even with the good pics .

we recovered some MORE intact shank jacket-pieces (like rings with other parts attached) always split open on one side (and a slug of base core split on one side farther on ) at 100M . it sure does look like thats the case , that some or most of the fracture @100yds happens during yaw .

also , it seems they are still working fine @200 yds but just not fragging like at 100 . it looks like one fragmented / expanded a little better than the other . ? . is that the way you see it ?

this is a pritty cool test you did :beer: and w/pics to boot :wink:

no doubt about it , these things work :cool: its one thing to SAY it but another thing altogether to SHOW it .
 
#28 ·
The remains that were recovered at 200 yards was the 2nd shot. The first shot was unrecovered and left a huge gaping hole on the back of the phone book. Thats the one pictured with my cell phone next to it. The bullet exited the phone book then took a chunk out of the side of one of the pieces of wood on the pallet and kept on going. So yes I would imagine one performed better than the other. I think the one I recovered had expanded earlier and maybe not as much as the one that was unrecovered. There are still alot of questions I would like to answer with another test at 200 yards. I was also rushed a little bit through the test because a huge thunderstorm started rolling in.

In this picture I had opened up to the middle of the phonebook that had taken 2 shots at 200 yards. The smaller hole was the 200 yard remains that were recovered. The remains from the larger hole were not found and probably ended up somewhere along the berm at 220 yards. Now I'm really curious as to what that bullet did.



So how would you compare the devestation of 8M3 to 55gr M-193 or .223 68 and 77gr OTM ?

Do you plan on doing any 300 yard test with the 8M3? If I could find a range I would do it myself. Unfortunately all the private ranges here have a 1 -1 1/2 year waiting list. I even had connections and couldn't get a membership.

I'm gonna try to do some .223 to compare. Maybe that will settle my personal caliber debate. I have some M-193 (Win Q3131), Black Hills 68gr OTM and Hornady 68gr OTM.
 
#29 ·
Xenogy said:
I think the one I recovered had expanded earlier and maybe not as much as the one that was unrecovered.
i agree . just an example of early vs later expansion/fragmentaion as velocity drops . still , it all occured within 12" of penetration . there is bound to be some variation even in the same box/lot . moreso as the range increases .

i'm a club member again so , the longer range stuff i'll do and chrono . i have quite a backlog of things to chrono as i havent shot anything since late 2004 ! the smell of smokless thismorning was , was , it smelled like VICTORY ! :oops: it smelled good :cool:

if you do the 556x45 loads at 100 and/or 200 , thats the important comparison . i wonder if the M193 or OTM will even fragment at that (200) range ?

i'm wondering what these will do and how well they will do it just like you !

have to cut this short . my 'puter is screwing up bad . be back tomorrow evening , one way or another , with 16.25"BWMCULY8M3HP chrono data !
 
#30 ·
tryed to shoot groups @200M with the scope on useing the WMCULY8M3HP while chronoing . it didnt work . the group stitched across the target from center to the left about a foot and 1/2 , a victom of scope movement :sad: ended up waisting too many rounds trying to see where it would hit @300m for a waterjug test :sad: thats when i discoverd i'd forgotten the other box of WMCHP :mad:

next time i guess . got the chrono #s at least :neutral:

WMCULY8M3HP , 72F. , 10shots @15ft. , 16.25"B
ave 2322fps
hi , 2364
lo , 2271
es , 93fps
sd , 26
2351 ,2364 ,2328 ,2301 ,2319 ,2334 ,2331 ,2317 ,2304 , 2271

this wouldnt look so bad if it wernt for that 1 low shot (2271fps) the ES would only be 63fps and the average would be ?

2328fps :wink:

will chrono another box later .
 
#32 ·
thanks 5thShock .

i'm more just an advisor in this thread as Xenogy has done all the succesful work so far :thumbsup: when he shoots the comparison in a similar test with 556x45 M193 rounds , that will put it over the top .

there is an open paperdrive trailer sitting down by the local school . maybe if i walk backwards they'll think i'm putting bundles IN :goof:

nawwwt :confused:

what we need NOW is someone that can shoot 545x39 rounds in tests like this , at 100 and 200 .
 
#33 ·
Yoda, thanks for the chrono info. I have phonebooks that have been soaking for the past couple of hours. Also atleast 4 milk jugs so far. I plan on doing the 5.56 and .223 tests tomorrow. It will be from a 14.5" barrel 1/9 twist. I'll be doing the tests at 90 and 200 yards.

Maybe I can sneak in another shot of 8M3 at 200 yards. :twisted:
 
#34 ·
you may have to reserve the extra waterjugs & wet phonebooks for a 50 or 75M shot with those 556x45s from a 14.5"b , to see any fragmentation .

the chrono #s also squelch rumors :bsflag: that this WMCULY is weak / lame ammo because of how it FEELS .
 
#35 · (Edited)
Just got back from the range! I'll work on getting pics and info up tonight.

M-193 90 yards :neutral:

M-193 200 yards :thumbsdown:

Black Hills 68gr OTM 90 yards :thumbsup:

Black Hills 68gr OTM 200 yards :thumbsup:





WMCULY8M3 200 yards 2 shots I found out what was making such big holes and it's not from expanding.. :grin:

More updates to come!
 
#36 ·
i almost forgot this because its been so long since these had LOT#s on them but , it seems the WMC has one under the boxes main flap .

my WMCULYHP lot# is inkstamped P66

if its a lot# ?

now i'll have to go down the road and see what #s are on their WMCULYHP . if different , i'll buy one for 6 damn dollars :mad: and chrono it .
 
#40 ·
Winchester Q3131 5.56x45 55gr @ 90 yards

Fragged



Fragged



Only yawed this time



No water jug thist time. Yawed...Exit back of first phone book



Yawed... Exited back of second phone book


Recovered bullet that yawed







Black Hills .223 68gr OTM @ 90 yards









Winchester Q3131 5.56x45 55gr @ 200 yards

Entry tip first no water jug


Still penetrating tip first


Finally starts to yaw a little. I think it just yawed and exited base first.




Black Hills .223 68gr OTM @ 200 yards

After exiting the water jug, the top jacket seperated at the cannalure and printed low left to the wound channel. Also there is a small piece of lead imbedded to the right and down a little.



The bottom half of the jacket and 90% of the core continued to penetrate



Wound channel looks familiar... Additional evidence that leads me to believe most of the action took place inside the water jug. Being that it's water it's unrecordable. What you see here is the very last half of the permanent cavity. The first 1/2 of the permanent cavity happened inside the water.



Continued penetration into the 2nd phone book



Remains found at the very back of the last phone book. It had penetrated a small protion close to the spine of the book. It was probably about 1-2 additional inches of penetration from the first phone book.

Pictured here is bottom half of the jacket and atleast 90% core.





WMCULY8M3 @ 200 yards

Penetrated jug of water first. Then exited leaving a huge hole in the back of the first phone book. I did two shots and they both did the same exact thing so I only bothered taking pics of the first shot.



Remains found enbedded in 2nd phone book.
So.... Uly 8M3 at 200 yards deforms at the tip then yaws very nicely staying at 90 degrees for quite some time!




So looks like Black Hills 68gr OTM preforms at a variety of distance. Even from a 14.5 inch barrel it still performed well out to 200 yards. From what I have heard this stuff only frags out to 120 yards from a 14.5 inch barrel. I guess it still has some potential at 200 yards. Not the easiest load to stock for SHTF as it runs approx $350-400 per 1k

M-193 was a bit dissapointing. As some of the only ammo the average Joe can stockpile in 5.56x45 or .223 it definately has it's limits. At 90 yards it either yawed or fragged. The results would be the same for a 16" barrel at 100-110 yards. This stuff runs about $220 per 1k. A little pricey but what other options does one have in a decent price range?

Last but not least is WMC ULY8M3 7.62x39. It performed well fragmenting at 100 yards. At 200 yards it does a good job staying in a 90 degree yaw leaving behind a nice big hole. Plenty of energy leaving larger temporary cavities much larger than .223 does when it yaws. Water jugs also had atleast twice the explosion at either range. Average Joe can afford at approx $150 per 1k.

ETA: Comparing 3 shots of WMC ULY8M3 @ 200 yards.



The bullet bases are oblonged due to yawing.
 
#41 ·
krinkov556 said:
hey , great little pic addition ! did you see my 'stand alone post' about looking into the HP with a magnifying glass ?

i had thought to saw one open on one side , then useing plyers , peel the jacket off the core to show the extent of internal fault cuts . never got around to it . i've just got too many things to do ... :confused:

you could easily remove the cores from your sectioned bullet and have a peek :shock:
 
#43 ·
freerangeYODA said:
hey , great little pic addition ! did you see my 'stand alone post' about looking into the HP with a magnifying glass ?

i had thought to saw one open on one side , then useing plyers , peel the jacket off the core to show the extent of internal fault cuts . never got around to it . i've just got too many things to do ... :confused:

you could easily remove the cores from your sectioned bullet and have a peek :shock:
Well you peaked my curosity, so had to go the next step. The core and the jacket are both from the same sliced half. Note the ring line for reference of length of cut as related to the bullet core. The cut as shown in the jacket is much deeper and pronounced from the cross line and forward in the direction towards the nose of the jacket as compared to the shallower and narrower cut from the cross line and aft in the direction towards the base of the jacket.

It's always a good day when I learn something new. :grin:


 
#45 ·
had one of those really , really REALLY BAD days but all kharma worked out for the good by days end :smile: i'm so tired (after sirloin steak dinner !) i can hardly keep my eyes open to type this and drink water .

chronoed WMCULYHPs of differnt lot than before , these were P78 .

the sun was such an angle by the time i shot that weird readings happened , i recon from 'glint' on the shiny bullets , 3175fps too 1390fps but all those showed the ERROR dot . only 7 shots took . they had an average velocity @15ft. of 2354fps from 16.25"b @82/84F. high velocity was 2384fps and low 2339fps makeing ES 45fps for the 7 .

no WEAK WMC here boys and girls :wink:

couldnt do much today , shot one into a 5galwater jug @50ft. and recoverd only a 'wedding ring' hunk of jacket from the heel & shank .

zzzzZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzzzzzZZ
 
#47 ·
after seeing Xenogyies pics showing WMCULYHP perfomance @200M , it seemed usless to attempt a 300M water test with it , being that 200M is about it for any expansion .

so ,

i shot its nearest selfdefence competitor , Winchesters SUPER-X 123gr. soft point at a line-up of 3 waterjugs . 2 , 1gal. glychol type jugs each 4.5" thick and a chintzy 5 gal leftover from Y2K , 16" thick layed on its side , makeing for 25" of water .

a sight in shot with the scope netted a hit on the cardboard backer 8" above and dead center too the intended target . it inspired no confidence of expansion however as it clocked only 2135fps @15ft. 78F. overcast , lt.rain . the next did 2182fps @15ft. and struck jug almost dead center . only effect was of the front jug falling over foreward .

on examination the bullet had poked threw all point first without any expansion save tip flattening (about .180" dia.) which matched entrance and exit wipe-holes in the jugs .

a cardboard witness 12" behind recorded some yaw as did the cardboard witness on the backstop . recoverd bullet was just under the sandy surface , only scuffed on one side . looked just like the Chinese and Russian softpoints recoverd from 100M water targets , tip flattened .

those 2 , 1gal jugs can be patched and used again ! just poked is all . the 5gal only cracked open like a dropped melon , not worth saveing anyway .

this is the worst possible type of performance .

would another 100 or 200 fps have helped ? maybe ?!? thats not what Winchester loaded though :confused:
 
#48 ·
Excellent thanks for the update on the Winchester SP. Looks like 8M3 is still king. :grin:

So... been wondering what your opinions were on the .223 tests I did if you get a chance to type everything up again. I'm sure you spotted a few things that I didn't see. :smile:
 
#49 ·
Yoda... guess what hunting ammo I have...


I am going to ask a very stupid question- I would be afraid to but hey look at my reputation already. :goof:

If you put some kind of hole in the soft point tip of the bullet- would that increase expansion or anything? A HSP desing like what is used on the .30 carbine to increase expansion?

I am asking because I am hoping there is hope for this ammo besides dumping the powder and using a different amount of a new powder to increase velocity.
 
#50 ·
sorry Xenogy

this thread is so picture heavy , i didnt even see your last 2 photos of the 200yd recoverd WMCULY8M3HP (for some reason i like typeing that acronym) 'till last night :shock:

i cant syncronize or save the page ? and must download it every time to see it . THEN , if i move the page wrong , it SMEARS :mad: frustrating . so , then i must refresh it or go-back and forward and start loading it all over again ... :evil:

Q-gunner2 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yoda... guess what hunting ammo I have...
didnt you see this ; Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:58 am , in the RICH and BEAUTIFUL thread ?
 
#51 ·
There is no post in that thread for that date...

But if you mean 5:58, the one about swapping PMC bullets for loads... I'd somehow mess it up and blow myself up. My brother's reloading kit doesn't have 7.62x39mm dies or the stuff for the .311 bullet either so I would also have to buy the crap for it...

I guess I have to rip myself off and buy NORMA, eh? :neutral:
 
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