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5.45x39 ammo + more updates

37K views 62 replies 28 participants last post by  Il Cattivo 
#1 ·
you will need to download and read your PDF homework before this lecture :lol:

http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/ak74_ ... ential.pdf

seriously though , there is lots more to ground to cover . this is just the primer toward understanding it .

questions before we start?
 
#27 ·
i e-mailed him to find out about this statement

Cavity exceeded 6.0 ± 0.031” at maximum magnitude from 6.0 ± 0.031” depth to 11.2 ± 0.031” depth.

it did EXACTLY what i observed from Wolf and Barnaul 545x39 FMJBTs in early water/wetpaper tests , ie , was 90deg. sideways by 4.5" and mostly sideways through and through . this makes for a MUCH larger temp cavity than just a quick "FLIP AROUND" as shown in the old illustration of Facklers' gello test of soviet 7n6 .

the 762x39 Wolf FMJBT does exactly the same thing but , larger bullet + more energy = larger temp cavity .
 
#28 ·
he replyed and said yes , the 6"square block developed radial cracks between 6" (15.25cm) penetration and 11.2" (28.45cm) . that means the temporary cavity EXCEDED 6" (15.25cm) for almost a 1/2foot .

the gello test for 7n6 shows temp.cav. is about 6" dia. maximum at 4.3" (11cm) penetration depth .

since both rounds are the same size and are 90deg. at about the same depth , i think what we are seeing is , like , if the temp.cavity of the 7n6 in the illustration kept growing larger , which it would , because the WOLF bullet is still "sideways" .


 
#33 ·
The key thing to notice on the "gelatin" pics is how fast the 5.45 started to yaw... That is key to knocking down thin opponents and not wasting energy with a bullet that exited the person with little damage.
There is almost no "neck" on the 5.45 wound channel.
Great pics
Anthony
 
#34 ·
Mr.Brassfetcher has been a buisy boy !

his website has jello tests of the 545 Bulgarian and Wolf 59/60gr HPBT to go with the 59/60gr FMJBT .

additionally he did a 762x39 Fed softpoint and 556x45 M855 (but no maker/lot info ?)

:allright:

HURRAY BRASSFETCHER !

if anyone is shocked by the Wolf HP performance , i'll tell you why :cool:
 
#36 ·
that the Wolf HPBT penetrated 8.4" of jello before yaw is a design flaw malfunction common to Wolf 762x39 and 545x39 .

as you should all know by now , those Wolf bullets have the large tip space that shifts the bullets weight ballance way back near the base , causeing very EARLY yaw .

well ,
the design makes for very little in the way of OGIVE to hold against chamber pressure . if the core is not a very tight fit , it can be pushed foreward too various degrees which is the cause of "Wolf groups" with 3 or 4 shots near each other with a flyer , always the flyers . i also SPECULATE that this can be caused by various chamber/bore/forcing cone defects such as a ruff spot down the barrel or an overly large/worn forceing cone .

in a sloppy made bullet , the core can be pushed all the way up into the "space" . this causes the the deep point-first penetration .

i have CAUSED this to occur on the target end of things by placeing partical boards infront of waterjug targets . a single 3/4" partical board had no effect on the early yaw of Wolf FMJBTs (same as the HPs , just no hole in the tip) but , two such boards caused pointfirst penetration of the test jugs .

with the WEAPON CAUSED core displacement i planned a test where i would shoot a 20 to 40 rd sample into a LONG , 4foot squ. stack of 'blue board' , a common (cheap!) foam insulation used in construction under sideing , @500m .
this would allow me to examine the bullets as they came from the gun and how far individual cores were displaced by chamber pressure .

indeed , even 'hammer pulling' many such bullets reviels some few have "bumped up" cores .
 
#37 ·
after 10 or more years of testing these TIP SPACE bullets its obvious to me that the original idea with 5.45/7n6 was to cause the bullet to yaw for sure AND cause it to spend a longer time (dwell) sideways . this is the attitude that creates cavitation .

with the BIG tipspace bullets in commercial ammo all that is plain to see but with the 7n6 its difficult to see much more DWELL although there is some . I BELIEVE this is from the close range that jello is normally tested at , 25/50ft. and if jello tests would be conducted at 100/300m , we would see more dwell as the lead would not have so much energy as to SPLASH all the way around inside the tip , just flow into the direction of decelleration while sideways .

i base this observation on the X-RAY pics of tested 7n6 bullets back a ways in this thread . notice the apparent loss of SPACE compared to the unfired bullets . of course , the space CANT be lost , its just transfered to the middle , almost completly surrounded by lead , which accounts for the LACK of dwell at close range .

:dance:

now , i dont mean it would give complete profile penetration at those ranges , just SOME extended penetration distance while sideways . more than the published jello test shows .
 
#38 ·
Well, I have not alot of expirience with AK's in general. Other than being shot with one, I can tell you that when the 7.62 short hits your plate in the front that it'll leave a HUGE black and blue bruise and maybe crack or even break a rib or 2.

As far as the ballistics go, I've seen what a 5.45 does to a 85 buick and I'm here to tell you that its a damn cool little round to shoot.
 
#42 ·
tough_guy said:
Well, I have not alot of expirience with AK's in general. Other than being shot with one, I can tell you that when the 7.62 short hits your plate in the front that it'll leave a HUGE black and blue bruise and maybe crack or even break a rib or 2.

As far as the ballistics go, I've seen what a 5.45 does to a 85 buick and I'm here to tell you that its a damn cool little round to shoot.

:shock:

congrats on surviving that one !!

those plates really do a great job, dont they !!!

just watching 5.45 go through multiple/1 foot spaced, 1/2 " plywood is a trip !
 
#47 ·
Anyone heard anything about companies like Federal possibly making the round domestically? I know Hornady does but is anyone else jumping on board?
Just the Hornady stuff but there's some newly released Ukranian 5.45 that's 70gr IIRC, would like to see this stuff on the market soon.

The 5.45mm is nowhere near as effective as the 5.56mm NATO in either 55 or 62 gr varieties.
Hey, I like them - I have I think five 5.45 mm rifles - but they just don't wound as effectively as 5.56mm NATO.
You are talking in absolutes. Everything depedns on the barrel, twist rate, distance, etc....
A <55gr 5.56x45mm is designed to be shot from a 20" barrel and the 5.45x39mm is desinged to be shot from the ~16" AK barrel. The 5.56 depends on velocity to fragment at it's canelure while the 5.45 depends on it's yaw to do it's thing (which it reliably does).

If you want to wound then the 5.56 peashooter won't perform under certain condition but you can count on the 5.45 to pretty much always do it's thing.

Well, at least nobody is comparing the 7.62x39 to the 5.56... :chair:
 
#48 ·
ok I'll bite the bullet and compare the 5.56 to the 7.62x39. They're equal. *waits for the backlash*

Essohbe said:
Anyone heard anything about companies like Federal possibly making the round domestically? I know Hornady does but is anyone else jumping on board?
Just the Hornady stuff but there's some newly released Ukranian 5.45 that's 70gr IIRC, would like to see this stuff on the market soon.

[quote:3hwruf8h]The 5.45mm is nowhere near as effective as the 5.56mm NATO in either 55 or 62 gr varieties.
Hey, I like them - I have I think five 5.45 mm rifles - but they just don't wound as effectively as 5.56mm NATO.
You are talking in absolutes. Everything depedns on the barrel, twist rate, distance, etc....
A <55gr 5.56x45mm is designed to be shot from a 20" barrel and the 5.45x39mm is desinged to be shot from the ~16" AK barrel. The 5.56 depends on velocity to fragment at it's canelure while the 5.45 depends on it's yaw to do it's thing (which it reliably does).

If you want to wound then the 5.56 peashooter won't perform under certain condition but you can count on the 5.45 to pretty much always do it's thing.

Well, at least nobody is comparing the 7.62x39 to the 5.56... :chair:[/quote:3hwruf8h]
 
#49 ·
The link above says "out of stock' but SGAmmo's site still shows 12 crates & 4 cans in stock, I ordered a crate for $458 (includes shipping):

5.45x39 | SGAmmo.com

Palmetto State Armory still shows crates in stock but at $499 plus shipping. I think UN ammo still has some in stock also for $450+ship. Also saw an earlier post that Dan's Ammo had some in stock cheaper than SGA but shipping was twice as much, so SGA still came out cheapest.
 
#51 ·
Hornady has a decent round, though it doesn't perform like the price suggests. I just did a comparison of some of the common rounds out there last week. I wasn't pleased with my shooting as I know my VEPR to be an MoA rifle, not MoM like I shot that day. Regardless I think the results were interesting. Check it out and let me know what you think.

Hornady Vs Silver Bear Vs Golden Tiger Vs Red Army Standard
 
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